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Your second citation simply says that someone made a breakthrough discovery that the particles could be identified in some subjects. It doesn’t conclude that th

Your second citation simply says that someone made a breakthrough discovery that the particles could be identified in some subjects. It doesn’t conclude that they “can’t be flushed out” Your third citation is a weird ranty blog about everything from anarcho-capitalism anti-vaccine rants that is more angry than informative, but it’s somewhat beside the point: We are making laws to reduce microplastics deliberately introduced to products. Asking the entire world to stop using plastics immediately isn’t a real option. Individual action does have a significant effect, as the highest numbers of microplastic/nanoplastic particles are found directly inside of plastic containers like plastic water bottles. Several orders of magnitude higher than your government-provided tap water.

EGreg 3y ago
The vast majority of microplastics aren’t deliveberaly introduced into products, but come from breakdown of “everyday” plastics. When you wash your polyester shirts, for instance. Or when your plastic containers are “recycled”. Your characterization of having the entire world stop using plastics “immediately” is a strawman. We had decades. The amount of plastic has only grown, while R&D into non-biodegradable alternatives doesn’t get mych funding by comparison. The suggested solution is to have governments fund a UBI with Pigovian taxes. We can’t even pass this: https://csas.earth.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Fee-and-Dividend-Miller-Hansen-20191110-1.pdf https://csas.earth.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/... We the People should be angry, since we and our children will have to live with the consequences of this dysfunction and inaction, and increase in production and consumption of these things which externalize the cost, thanks to the profit motive. The list of things in that third link goes way beyond plastics. This is how our system works. Ours is an environmentallh irresponsible generstion living on an ecological credit card. The individuals are distracted from banding together to vote in governments that will pass a Pigovian Tax and Dividend on an increasing number of negative externalities. It requires a political movement, and anger is a great motivator and uniting force. In that third link, I list all the narratives individuals are told, in order to take focus away for governments and corporations, and onto shaming individuals into performing individual action downstream of the actual problem.
- PragmaticPulp 3y ago
  > Your characterization of having the entire world stop using plastics “immediately” is a strawman. We had decades. You think we can just stop using plastics in a couple decades?
  - EGreg 3y ago
    Of course, or at least massively reduce it, if we found alternatives that were good enough! Not “just” stop, but mandate some % of the savings go to R&D when Coca Cola or Snapple switches to Plastic. Tax that stuff! Look at what we did with CFCs globally when we came together — that is a massive success: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol We can also help reduce meat consumption gradually with more products like Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods etc. but it is far better and more effective if the government gets involved and taxes factory farms. As a side note, I know the alternatives have to be good enough before people switch, because I have been building https://qbix.com https://qbix.com for OVER a decade, and only now we are ready to present an alternative to the Big Tech monopolies no one can exit because they lack viable alternatives. This problem is everywhere in capitalism.
yowzadave 3y ago
> Individual action does have a significant effect, as the highest numbers of microplastic/nanoplastic particles are found directly inside of plastic containers like plastic water bottles If I limit my personal use of products like these, will this keep microplastics from entering my body? Or is there an effect from the broader environment, regardless of my personal initiatives? Also, will there be enough products that eliminate microplastics that it won’t be a huge cost/effort burden to go without?
- PragmaticPulp 3y ago
  Plastic from water bottles contains about two orders of magnitude more micro plastics than regular tap water. So yes, personal action can have an effect and the size of that effect is about 100x. It’s not possible to keep micro plastics out of your body 100%, but like everything it’s a question of how much. Even your tap water contains compounds like cyanide in trace amounts that we can measure, but that just says more about our ability to measure Tony quantities of compounds. You have to look at the relative significance of different amounts.
  - kgc 3y ago
    Very interesting. Is there an authoritative source for the 100x measurement? Would like to show friends.

EGreg 3y ago

The vast majority of microplastics aren’t deliveberaly introduced into products, but come from breakdown of “everyday” plastics. When you wash your polyester shirts, for instance. Or when your plastic containers are “recycled”. Your characterization of having the entire world stop using plastics “immediately” is a strawman. We had decades. The amount of plastic has only grown, while R&D into non-biodegradable alternatives doesn’t get mych funding by comparison. The suggested solution is to have governments fund a UBI with Pigovian taxes. We can’t even pass this: https://csas.earth.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Fee-and-Dividend-Miller-Hansen-20191110-1.pdf https://csas.earth.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/... We the People should be angry, since we and our children will have to live with the consequences of this dysfunction and inaction, and increase in production and consumption of these things which externalize the cost, thanks to the profit motive. The list of things in that third link goes way beyond plastics. This is how our system works. Ours is an environmentallh irresponsible generstion living on an ecological credit card. The individuals are distracted from banding together to vote in governments that will pass a Pigovian Tax and Dividend on an increasing number of negative externalities. It requires a political movement, and anger is a great motivator and uniting force. In that third link, I list all the narratives individuals are told, in order to take focus away for governments and corporations, and onto shaming individuals into performing individual action downstream of the actual problem.

PragmaticPulp 3y ago
> Your characterization of having the entire world stop using plastics “immediately” is a strawman. We had decades. You think we can just stop using plastics in a couple decades?
- EGreg 3y ago
  Of course, or at least massively reduce it, if we found alternatives that were good enough! Not “just” stop, but mandate some % of the savings go to R&D when Coca Cola or Snapple switches to Plastic. Tax that stuff! Look at what we did with CFCs globally when we came together — that is a massive success: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol We can also help reduce meat consumption gradually with more products like Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods etc. but it is far better and more effective if the government gets involved and taxes factory farms. As a side note, I know the alternatives have to be good enough before people switch, because I have been building https://qbix.com https://qbix.com for OVER a decade, and only now we are ready to present an alternative to the Big Tech monopolies no one can exit because they lack viable alternatives. This problem is everywhere in capitalism.

yowzadave 3y ago

> Individual action does have a significant effect, as the highest numbers of microplastic/nanoplastic particles are found directly inside of plastic containers like plastic water bottles If I limit my personal use of products like these, will this keep microplastics from entering my body? Or is there an effect from the broader environment, regardless of my personal initiatives? Also, will there be enough products that eliminate microplastics that it won’t be a huge cost/effort burden to go without?

PragmaticPulp 3y ago
Plastic from water bottles contains about two orders of magnitude more micro plastics than regular tap water. So yes, personal action can have an effect and the size of that effect is about 100x. It’s not possible to keep micro plastics out of your body 100%, but like everything it’s a question of how much. Even your tap water contains compounds like cyanide in trace amounts that we can measure, but that just says more about our ability to measure Tony quantities of compounds. You have to look at the relative significance of different amounts.
- kgc 3y ago
  Very interesting. Is there an authoritative source for the 100x measurement? Would like to show friends.