4 ms·

And we ingest them now, they are in our water [1], and they can’t be flushed out [2] — right? But these corporations put out metric tons of it externalizing th

by EGreg 4y ago

And we ingest them now, they are in our water [1], and they can’t be flushed out [2] — right? But these corporations put out metric tons of it externalizing the cost to everything and everyone. While the individual is told they can’t have a plastic bag or straw, and that we can recycle our way out of it (which is a scam — it was shipped to China, not recycled). Thanks corporatism! Government is carrying water for corporations while individuals are distracted into thinking they can clean up the mess with personal action [3] 1. https://extension.psu.edu/microplastics-in-our-waters-an-unquestionable-concern/ https://extension.psu.edu/microplastics-in-our-waters-an-unq... 2. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/24/microplastics-found-in-human-blood-for-first-time https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/24/micropla... 3. https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=362 https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=362

bandersnitch 4y ago
Worse yet, the personal action campaign turned a lot of people into rabid animals with 'recycling' everything, including much of which is just landfilled. And if you call into question the whole recycling industry, which has been mostly proven to be a scam of the plastics industry, they'll just get angry and say something like "well you just have to trust them at some point". Now, metal recycling is definitely a thing. Recycling alu or iron is definitely a valid thing. It costs a lot of energy to convert iron ore or bauxite into the associated pure metals. Countrywide laws that could change how recycling and products work: require cradle-to-grave product laws, and then make the source responsible for disposal. (That would turn the current externality into an internality. And their scale would help solve it.)
- EGreg 4y ago
  Or at least use pigovian taxes to remove the printed money from the economy. These would be great for forcing companies to start researching and using biodegradeable products right quick. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigouvian_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigouvian_tax
  - Jeff_Brown 4y ago
    Pigouvian taxes are great, but what connection do you see between them and the printing of money?
    - EGreg 4y ago
      If you don't redistribute the money directly to the people, that tax burden can fall disproportionately on the working class, and you get stuff like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/15/business/yellow-vests-movement-inequality.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/15/business/yellow-vests-mov... Furthermore, if you redistribute a UBI to the people, it makes the tax popular. This is massively important in a society that's tax-averse, and helps gather support for actually solving collective action problems.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
Your second citation simply says that someone made a breakthrough discovery that the particles could be identified in some subjects. It doesn’t conclude that they “can’t be flushed out” Your third citation is a weird ranty blog about everything from anarcho-capitalism anti-vaccine rants that is more angry than informative, but it’s somewhat beside the point: We are making laws to reduce microplastics deliberately introduced to products. Asking the entire world to stop using plastics immediately isn’t a real option. Individual action does have a significant effect, as the highest numbers of microplastic/nanoplastic particles are found directly inside of plastic containers like plastic water bottles. Several orders of magnitude higher than your government-provided tap water.
- EGreg 4y ago
  The vast majority of microplastics aren’t deliveberaly introduced into products, but come from breakdown of “everyday” plastics. When you wash your polyester shirts, for instance. Or when your plastic containers are “recycled”. Your characterization of having the entire world stop using plastics “immediately” is a strawman. We had decades. The amount of plastic has only grown, while R&D into non-biodegradable alternatives doesn’t get mych funding by comparison. The suggested solution is to have governments fund a UBI with Pigovian taxes. We can’t even pass this: https://csas.earth.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Fee-and-Dividend-Miller-Hansen-20191110-1.pdf https://csas.earth.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/... We the People should be angry, since we and our children will have to live with the consequences of this dysfunction and inaction, and increase in production and consumption of these things which externalize the cost, thanks to the profit motive. The list of things in that third link goes way beyond plastics. This is how our system works. Ours is an environmentallh irresponsible generstion living on an ecological credit card. The individuals are distracted from banding together to vote in governments that will pass a Pigovian Tax and Dividend on an increasing number of negative externalities. It requires a political movement, and anger is a great motivator and uniting force. In that third link, I list all the narratives individuals are told, in order to take focus away for governments and corporations, and onto shaming individuals into performing individual action downstream of the actual problem.
  - 4y ago
ajdude 4y ago
> and they can’t be flushed out [2] — right? This works for other forever chemicals, it may work for micro plastics: > Regular Blood Donations Can Reduce Toxic Forever Chemicals in the Bloodstream: Study > https://theswaddle.com/regular-blood-donations-can-reduce-toxic-forever-chemicals-in-the-bloodstream-study/ https://theswaddle.com/regular-blood-donations-can-reduce-to...
- tomjakubowski 4y ago
  bloodletting is back baby!
- tmountain 4y ago
  Also significantly reduces risk of heart attacks. Donating blood is good for you and it saves lives.
  - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
    If only they would take my blood! In Seattle I've tried to donate blood multiple times over the last decade. Every time, "because I've been to India in the last 5 years" they are unable to take my blood. Something about the risk of malaria. At worst, given a shortage, why not take my blood and analyze it? maybe even clean it (like with a dialysis machine)? Talk about a dumb rule. Anyways... is there some other way to get this advantage? Are there blood letting doctors?
    - manquer 4y ago
      You could donate in India perhaps ? Also afaik it is 3 months[1] for malarial region (like India) it was updated from one year after FDA guidance changed in 2020 [1] For former residents of malarial region you must have resided outside for three years first, here is link to the full guidance from FDA https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/recommendations-reduce-risk-transfusion-transmitted-malaria https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidan...

by EGreg 4y ago

bandersnitch 4y ago

Worse yet, the personal action campaign turned a lot of people into rabid animals with 'recycling' everything, including much of which is just landfilled. And if you call into question the whole recycling industry, which has been mostly proven to be a scam of the plastics industry, they'll just get angry and say something like "well you just have to trust them at some point". Now, metal recycling is definitely a thing. Recycling alu or iron is definitely a valid thing. It costs a lot of energy to convert iron ore or bauxite into the associated pure metals. Countrywide laws that could change how recycling and products work: require cradle-to-grave product laws, and then make the source responsible for disposal. (That would turn the current externality into an internality. And their scale would help solve it.)

EGreg 4y ago
Or at least use pigovian taxes to remove the printed money from the economy. These would be great for forcing companies to start researching and using biodegradeable products right quick. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigouvian_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigouvian_tax
- Jeff_Brown 4y ago
  Pigouvian taxes are great, but what connection do you see between them and the printing of money?
  - EGreg 4y ago
    If you don't redistribute the money directly to the people, that tax burden can fall disproportionately on the working class, and you get stuff like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/15/business/yellow-vests-movement-inequality.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/15/business/yellow-vests-mov... Furthermore, if you redistribute a UBI to the people, it makes the tax popular. This is massively important in a society that's tax-averse, and helps gather support for actually solving collective action problems.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

Your second citation simply says that someone made a breakthrough discovery that the particles could be identified in some subjects. It doesn’t conclude that they “can’t be flushed out” Your third citation is a weird ranty blog about everything from anarcho-capitalism anti-vaccine rants that is more angry than informative, but it’s somewhat beside the point: We are making laws to reduce microplastics deliberately introduced to products. Asking the entire world to stop using plastics immediately isn’t a real option. Individual action does have a significant effect, as the highest numbers of microplastic/nanoplastic particles are found directly inside of plastic containers like plastic water bottles. Several orders of magnitude higher than your government-provided tap water.

EGreg 4y ago
The vast majority of microplastics aren’t deliveberaly introduced into products, but come from breakdown of “everyday” plastics. When you wash your polyester shirts, for instance. Or when your plastic containers are “recycled”. Your characterization of having the entire world stop using plastics “immediately” is a strawman. We had decades. The amount of plastic has only grown, while R&D into non-biodegradable alternatives doesn’t get mych funding by comparison. The suggested solution is to have governments fund a UBI with Pigovian taxes. We can’t even pass this: https://csas.earth.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Fee-and-Dividend-Miller-Hansen-20191110-1.pdf https://csas.earth.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/... We the People should be angry, since we and our children will have to live with the consequences of this dysfunction and inaction, and increase in production and consumption of these things which externalize the cost, thanks to the profit motive. The list of things in that third link goes way beyond plastics. This is how our system works. Ours is an environmentallh irresponsible generstion living on an ecological credit card. The individuals are distracted from banding together to vote in governments that will pass a Pigovian Tax and Dividend on an increasing number of negative externalities. It requires a political movement, and anger is a great motivator and uniting force. In that third link, I list all the narratives individuals are told, in order to take focus away for governments and corporations, and onto shaming individuals into performing individual action downstream of the actual problem.
- 4y ago

ajdude 4y ago

> and they can’t be flushed out [2] — right? This works for other forever chemicals, it may work for micro plastics: > Regular Blood Donations Can Reduce Toxic Forever Chemicals in the Bloodstream: Study > https://theswaddle.com/regular-blood-donations-can-reduce-toxic-forever-chemicals-in-the-bloodstream-study/ https://theswaddle.com/regular-blood-donations-can-reduce-to...

tomjakubowski 4y ago
bloodletting is back baby!
tmountain 4y ago
Also significantly reduces risk of heart attacks. Donating blood is good for you and it saves lives.
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  If only they would take my blood! In Seattle I've tried to donate blood multiple times over the last decade. Every time, "because I've been to India in the last 5 years" they are unable to take my blood. Something about the risk of malaria. At worst, given a shortage, why not take my blood and analyze it? maybe even clean it (like with a dialysis machine)? Talk about a dumb rule. Anyways... is there some other way to get this advantage? Are there blood letting doctors?
  - manquer 4y ago
    You could donate in India perhaps ? Also afaik it is 3 months[1] for malarial region (like India) it was updated from one year after FDA guidance changed in 2020 [1] For former residents of malarial region you must have resided outside for three years first, here is link to the full guidance from FDA https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/recommendations-reduce-risk-transfusion-transmitted-malaria https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidan...