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Average person does not know what they want. They don’t know how technology works. They don’t even see difference between PWA and apps. If everything becomes

by nicce 4y ago

Average person does not know what they want. They don’t know how technology works. They don’t even see difference between PWA and apps. If everything becomes PWA, there is no transparency for the apps. No indication what data they collect. No control for the quality of the apps. No moderation over malicious apps. PWAs need more permissions to provide the functionality people need, it is not just website.

bookofjoe 4y ago
This "average person"[non-techie] doesn't even know what PWA is/means/stands for. Truth.
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  Do they need to know what AAC or MP4 is to use Spotify? The point is the experience, not the name of it.
devjab 4y ago
> Average person does not know what they want. The problem with statements like that, aside from the loftiness, is that you end up with a world where people who think they know better get to decide. I worked in the public sector digitalisation, and while I’m a programmer we were bundled with the rest of IT so I experienced what the supporters had to deal with. This included a lot of employees who genuinely couldn’t tell if the device they needed help for was an iOS or Android device without some guidance. So I’m not going to dispute the claims you make about how it’s nice to protect the “average person” from themselves, but I don’t think any of us will like the what that sort of thinking creates. Well, maybe some people will, but a lot won’t. I recently wanted something for my two-factor keys and the best all I could find was for Android but not iOS. I ended up filming over a few $ for a Bitwarden subscription, but there are just a lot of little stories like that. I mean, I’m not in the audience for Fortnite, but I’m sure a lot of people were sad when it left iOS. A of which can be avoided if we stop giving all the power to the tech companies. I’m not sure Apple really has anything to fear from it either in terms of security or usability. Part of the reason they sell so well, at least to me, is that they have the ease of use and tech that works out of the box. It’s very rare that I need side loading. I’m not a huge fan of the Safari enforcement, but it doesn’t really bother me either as I can still use FireFox and the sync. I think Google might have more to fear from it, since they need to peddle commercials inside apps like YouTube, and you can block that if they allow you to side-load app blockers, but for Apple I think almost everyone will just keep on trucking. It will of course hurt their control over payments, like the original poster points out, but that’s not really “my” or the “average persons” problem.
- nicce 4y ago
  > I’m not sure Apple really has anything to fear from it either in terms of security or usability. Sideloading will hit hard for Apple's pro-privacy brand. You lose transparency and quality control for the apps. They don't need to tell you about their data collection practices. They don't have to do actually anything at all, since you can't ban those apps anymore. Phishing is still a problem of Android and that will become a problem on iOS too. On Android there is still business for anti-virus engines because of the sideloading and Phishing. On Apple devices, there isn't really need for anti-virus but it will become relevant again. If the sideloading will become very easy, big players who make money with data collection, will leave the platform. You won't find Meta apps soon from the App store. They are so big that people will download these apps regardless. If that happens, how many fake Instagram apps we will see after that? And you can't ban them from the App store anymore.
sirsinsalot 4y ago
I'm pretty sure "the average person doesn't know what they want" is a belief that powered everything from eugenics to genocide to our toxic culture around health, happiness and consumerism. So it appears the non-average person doesn't have a clue what's right for the clueless masses either. Liberty, choice, community and respect. That's all that is needed.
- brookst 4y ago
  Yes, everyone who has a different utility function from you is a closet eugenicst. Respect, as you say, is important. Leaf by example.
- nicce 4y ago
  You took liberty to generalize what I said. I was referring into technical implementations and what risks are included. It requires deep undertanding how these things work. Average user does not have it. Many aspects are invisible to the end-users, like the war against malware in App Store. The end-user knows what they want in terms of end-result. How to to get the job done with a tool (app). They can compare end-results. Sometimes, however not all results all there to be compared. Because, they don’t understand what kind of tools can be actually created. They are happy with the current one because they think it is the best what can be. Or, what else the tool can do besides their advertised functionality. Which can be malicious or harmful to user in another way. Or tools could work in a better way, but are currently hindered for monetary gain. All this requires specialised knowledge.
- kajaktum 4y ago
  What? You can both believe that “people don’t know what’s good for them” and that “liberty and freedom is necessary for a functioning society”. For example, insects is a pretty good source of nutrient and protein but is there anyone within a 100 miles from you that will willingly eat them daily? Even easier, we all know, deep down, that we could be doing something better, but how often do we rise up to that ideal?

by nicce 4y ago

bookofjoe 4y ago

This "average person"[non-techie] doesn't even know what PWA is/means/stands for. Truth.

sirsinsalot 4y ago
Do they need to know what AAC or MP4 is to use Spotify? The point is the experience, not the name of it.

devjab 4y ago

> Average person does not know what they want. The problem with statements like that, aside from the loftiness, is that you end up with a world where people who think they know better get to decide. I worked in the public sector digitalisation, and while I’m a programmer we were bundled with the rest of IT so I experienced what the supporters had to deal with. This included a lot of employees who genuinely couldn’t tell if the device they needed help for was an iOS or Android device without some guidance. So I’m not going to dispute the claims you make about how it’s nice to protect the “average person” from themselves, but I don’t think any of us will like the what that sort of thinking creates. Well, maybe some people will, but a lot won’t. I recently wanted something for my two-factor keys and the best all I could find was for Android but not iOS. I ended up filming over a few $ for a Bitwarden subscription, but there are just a lot of little stories like that. I mean, I’m not in the audience for Fortnite, but I’m sure a lot of people were sad when it left iOS. A of which can be avoided if we stop giving all the power to the tech companies. I’m not sure Apple really has anything to fear from it either in terms of security or usability. Part of the reason they sell so well, at least to me, is that they have the ease of use and tech that works out of the box. It’s very rare that I need side loading. I’m not a huge fan of the Safari enforcement, but it doesn’t really bother me either as I can still use FireFox and the sync. I think Google might have more to fear from it, since they need to peddle commercials inside apps like YouTube, and you can block that if they allow you to side-load app blockers, but for Apple I think almost everyone will just keep on trucking. It will of course hurt their control over payments, like the original poster points out, but that’s not really “my” or the “average persons” problem.

nicce 4y ago
> I’m not sure Apple really has anything to fear from it either in terms of security or usability. Sideloading will hit hard for Apple's pro-privacy brand. You lose transparency and quality control for the apps. They don't need to tell you about their data collection practices. They don't have to do actually anything at all, since you can't ban those apps anymore. Phishing is still a problem of Android and that will become a problem on iOS too. On Android there is still business for anti-virus engines because of the sideloading and Phishing. On Apple devices, there isn't really need for anti-virus but it will become relevant again. If the sideloading will become very easy, big players who make money with data collection, will leave the platform. You won't find Meta apps soon from the App store. They are so big that people will download these apps regardless. If that happens, how many fake Instagram apps we will see after that? And you can't ban them from the App store anymore.

sirsinsalot 4y ago

I'm pretty sure "the average person doesn't know what they want" is a belief that powered everything from eugenics to genocide to our toxic culture around health, happiness and consumerism. So it appears the non-average person doesn't have a clue what's right for the clueless masses either. Liberty, choice, community and respect. That's all that is needed.

brookst 4y ago
Yes, everyone who has a different utility function from you is a closet eugenicst. Respect, as you say, is important. Leaf by example.
nicce 4y ago
You took liberty to generalize what I said. I was referring into technical implementations and what risks are included. It requires deep undertanding how these things work. Average user does not have it. Many aspects are invisible to the end-users, like the war against malware in App Store. The end-user knows what they want in terms of end-result. How to to get the job done with a tool (app). They can compare end-results. Sometimes, however not all results all there to be compared. Because, they don’t understand what kind of tools can be actually created. They are happy with the current one because they think it is the best what can be. Or, what else the tool can do besides their advertised functionality. Which can be malicious or harmful to user in another way. Or tools could work in a better way, but are currently hindered for monetary gain. All this requires specialised knowledge.
kajaktum 4y ago
What? You can both believe that “people don’t know what’s good for them” and that “liberty and freedom is necessary for a functioning society”. For example, insects is a pretty good source of nutrient and protein but is there anyone within a 100 miles from you that will willingly eat them daily? Even easier, we all know, deep down, that we could be doing something better, but how often do we rise up to that ideal?