4 ms·

Games on steam are not rented

by beebeepka 4y ago

herbst 4y ago
They pretty much are according to their ToS
- beebeepka 4y ago
  Laws trump ToS of any kind. Do you disagree with that? If things are different in your jurisdiction, please do share how and why
  - herbst 4y ago
    I agree (hence the whole topic) however in practice steam has full control. If steam servers shut down tomorrow and the client destroys itself most games will refuse to start.
  - blendergeek 4y ago
    > Laws trump ToS of any kind. Do you disagree with that? What do you mean by that? The steam ToS (which are enforceable by law) make pretty clear that Valve can revoke your access to any game at any time. Further, your access is dependent on Valve's continued existence. The argument that you are "buying a license" is like saying you "buy a rental contract" at a car rental place. The contract you have with Valve to play the game allows you to play the game for an indefinite period of time, but crucially only while Valve is still in business and while they let you play the game. This is in the ToS and in the USA there is no reason (IANAL) that I see to think the courts won't enforce this contract. > If things are different in your jurisdiction, please do share how and why Which law in your jurisdiction makes the Valve ToS feel more like a purchase and less like a rental?
    - oblak 4y ago
      Are you seriously arguing that ToS somehow override laws? Since you're not a lawyer (your words) and seem to care about US laws (I don't), I am not sure what's the point of this response to a topic about digital purchases in the EU.
      - blendergeek 3y ago
        The confusion in this conversation seems to be centered on the difference between US and EU law. In the EU, Steam may have to change the wording on the "buy" button. It will be interesting to see. In the US it is legal to have a "buy" button that actually purchases a longterm revocable license. I don't like it, but thats how it works on this side of the pond.
        beebeepka 3y ago
        Fair enough. I think the "buy" text issue was somewhat resolved a while ago here in the EU. Yes, you may not own the game but do purchase non-revokable licence. Was it based on German law? Don't remember
    - vel0city 4y ago
      The big difference with the car rental vs a perpetual license is the perpetual aspect of it. Nobody is signing a contract with a car rental place to exchange money once and then have the car for a long, indeterminate time. Rental contracts have defined time periods. Perpetual licenses don't. That's a massive difference.
suddenclarity 4y ago
It's mostly semantics for this context. You purchase the right to use them for an unspecified time, not the game itself. Steam can revoke that access by shutting down your account or the service at any time. DRM will make sure that not even games you have installed will continue to run.
- oblak 4y ago
  They have no right to delete installed games, do they? How, exactly, is steam going to prevent you from accessing the files on your computer? They are always there and ready to be archived by you and even Steam itself. Now, some, or even many, new games may refuse if they are somehow extremely dependent on the service. The ones that I have tried run fine. Most old stuff, though.
  - anonymousab 4y ago
    > How, exactly, is steam going to prevent you from accessing the files on your computer The vast supermajority of games on steam require steam itself to be operable in order to even run. Valve absolutely can break or turn off steam and (legally!) revoke access to most games on most steam user PCs that way.
    - oblak 4y ago
      Are you sure they can legally break my games without due compensation? For any reason whatsoever? I find that hard to believe.
PeterisP 4y ago
Can you resell a game you've 'bought' on steam to someone else?
- oblak 4y ago
  Not yet.
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
The very fact that you say so basically proves the parent's point: you believe that you bought a game (or a Kindle ebook or whatever), whereas in fact you have zero control over it and if the vendor decides you can't use it, you can't. It's not a theory, it's practical reality, already tested by Adobe.

Games on steam are not rented

herbst 4y ago

They pretty much are according to their ToS

beebeepka 4y ago
Laws trump ToS of any kind. Do you disagree with that? If things are different in your jurisdiction, please do share how and why
- herbst 4y ago
  I agree (hence the whole topic) however in practice steam has full control. If steam servers shut down tomorrow and the client destroys itself most games will refuse to start.
- blendergeek 4y ago
  > Laws trump ToS of any kind. Do you disagree with that? What do you mean by that? The steam ToS (which are enforceable by law) make pretty clear that Valve can revoke your access to any game at any time. Further, your access is dependent on Valve's continued existence. The argument that you are "buying a license" is like saying you "buy a rental contract" at a car rental place. The contract you have with Valve to play the game allows you to play the game for an indefinite period of time, but crucially only while Valve is still in business and while they let you play the game. This is in the ToS and in the USA there is no reason (IANAL) that I see to think the courts won't enforce this contract. > If things are different in your jurisdiction, please do share how and why Which law in your jurisdiction makes the Valve ToS feel more like a purchase and less like a rental?
  - oblak 4y ago
    Are you seriously arguing that ToS somehow override laws? Since you're not a lawyer (your words) and seem to care about US laws (I don't), I am not sure what's the point of this response to a topic about digital purchases in the EU.
    - blendergeek 3y ago
      The confusion in this conversation seems to be centered on the difference between US and EU law. In the EU, Steam may have to change the wording on the "buy" button. It will be interesting to see. In the US it is legal to have a "buy" button that actually purchases a longterm revocable license. I don't like it, but thats how it works on this side of the pond.
      - beebeepka 3y ago
        Fair enough. I think the "buy" text issue was somewhat resolved a while ago here in the EU. Yes, you may not own the game but do purchase non-revokable licence. Was it based on German law? Don't remember
  - vel0city 4y ago
    The big difference with the car rental vs a perpetual license is the perpetual aspect of it. Nobody is signing a contract with a car rental place to exchange money once and then have the car for a long, indeterminate time. Rental contracts have defined time periods. Perpetual licenses don't. That's a massive difference.

suddenclarity 4y ago

It's mostly semantics for this context. You purchase the right to use them for an unspecified time, not the game itself. Steam can revoke that access by shutting down your account or the service at any time. DRM will make sure that not even games you have installed will continue to run.

oblak 4y ago
They have no right to delete installed games, do they? How, exactly, is steam going to prevent you from accessing the files on your computer? They are always there and ready to be archived by you and even Steam itself. Now, some, or even many, new games may refuse if they are somehow extremely dependent on the service. The ones that I have tried run fine. Most old stuff, though.
- anonymousab 4y ago
  > How, exactly, is steam going to prevent you from accessing the files on your computer The vast supermajority of games on steam require steam itself to be operable in order to even run. Valve absolutely can break or turn off steam and (legally!) revoke access to most games on most steam user PCs that way.
  - oblak 4y ago
    Are you sure they can legally break my games without due compensation? For any reason whatsoever? I find that hard to believe.

PeterisP 4y ago

Can you resell a game you've 'bought' on steam to someone else?

oblak 4y ago
Not yet.

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago

The very fact that you say so basically proves the parent's point: you believe that you bought a game (or a Kindle ebook or whatever), whereas in fact you have zero control over it and if the vendor decides you can't use it, you can't. It's not a theory, it's practical reality, already tested by Adobe.