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I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies (from my consumer point of view). Apple has been for example putting limits on dat

I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies (from my consumer point of view). Apple has been for example putting limits on data collection and tracking. The main mechanism is to kick apps out from Apps store if they don't play by the rules. I'm worried that side loading will be a step back here. Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and distribute it through other ways. With their strong position I don't have much choice - it's not like there would be five competing apps serving the same purpose (connecting to the people and communities on Facebook).

heywoodlh 4y ago
> I don't have much choice I hope I don't come across as snarky -- I am genuinely curious -- but why don't you have a choice? Are you unable to contact friends, family, etc. any other way outside of FB? The phrasing seems so strong, I am second guessing if I am just privileged/lucky (location, friend/family circumstances, etc?) to be off of social media but still have friends and family that I stay connected to. EDIT: fixed grammar
- jb1991 4y ago
  I would normally agree with you, but a friend of mine is an immigrant from a south east Asian nation and the only way to easily communicate is through Facebook with the family there. It’s like saying, sure we can take away your phone and you can still write letters, but at some point communication is also about convenience.
  - heywoodlh 4y ago
    That makes perfect sense, definitely sheds light on the fortunate circumstance I am in of not needing FB to conveniently communicate with my connections. Because, I agree, you should be able to conveniently communicate if you can.
  - pjerem 4y ago
    Can’t this friend install something else on his phone ? Signal maybe ?
    - zamnos 4y ago
      Cool. Does signal allow you to register without a phone number yet? Data-only plans with no phone number attached are quite common in some countries.
      - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
        Telegram allows you to register without a phone number, as of recently.
      - guilamu 4y ago
        Not yet, no.
      - Hacksawed 4y ago
        By providing Signal with any phone number at which you can receive an SMS or text message, you can register a Signal account at that other phone number. For example, you can create a pseudonymous Google account, register a Google Voice VoIP number, and use that as your Signal number. Or you can even use a free throw-away SMS account and use that number when you sign up for your Signal account instead of your real phone number. The Signal service will happily send the throw-away number a text message with the verification code, letting you complete the account sign-up process.
        rendx 4y ago
        Registration also works for numbers that can receive calls but not SMS. Like any landline you (even temporarily) have access to.
        zamnos 4y ago
        Does that work if some else has used that phone number to register an account already?
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  Here is an example: we are invited to my kid’s friend’s birthday. They manage the event on facebook. They had to change location and time couple of times already. We don’t want to miss it and alternatives to facebook just aren’t any better. Sometimes it’s just convenient.
  - ivlad 4y ago
    Calendar invites are cross-platform and reasonably convenient. You don’t even need to subscribe to someone’s calendar, updates are vCalendar files sent over email. At least iOS and Outlook parse your inbox for vCalendar files and may update the accepted event automatically.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Derbasti 4y ago
Looking at Android, where sideloading has been available forever, there doesn't seem any evidence of your worry.
- Joeri 4y ago
  Apple will make it annoying enough to sideload that no meaningful amount of users will do it, causing it to be largely irrelevant. It’s only worth it to app makers to have side loading if they can do it for large numbers of users, bypass the app store’s rules, and bypass apple’s take. I’m expecting apple to set it up in a way they can do none of those things, by making it cumbersome to sideload, not giving entitlements to apps not published through the store, and by taking a cut for sales from sideloaded apps.
  - rimliu 4y ago
    It is already annoying enough without Apple needing to do anything.
- ivlad 4y ago
  Recent example: https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-suspends-chinas-pinduoduo-app-due-malware-issues-2023-03-21/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-suspends-chinas-pi... Malicious app in alternative store, the one in Google Play is different.
  - Derbasti 4y ago
    That's exactly the point, though: side loading is not something to worry about, since normal users won't and shouldn't care about it at all. It is not a threat to the Apple App Store. But it does allow for niche applications such as NewPipe and F-Droid, for technical users who know the risks.
    - ivlad 4y ago
      Almost everyone in China uses alternative stores, like Huawei or Xiaomi; how else do you think malicious PDD app got on their phones? The same applies to other counties in South-East Asia. I have seen our app for Android repackaged with malware and uploaded to an alternative store and listed there with hundreds of thousands downloads.
cageface 4y ago
Defenders of Apple's policies always say you can just use other tech if you don't agree with them. The same principle applies here. If an app requires you to use a third party app store and you don't like it then choose another app. If you feel compelled to use a product with policies you don't agree with then now you understand how many of us feel about iOS.
- Spivak 4y ago
  But there's no push, you can literally ignore Apple's existence and use none of their products and you'll have no care in the world. Apple's network effect is basically zero. There's always one Android user in the friend group that spoils iMessage and FaceTime so we have to use something else anyway. If you mean you feel compelled to sell in their store which requires a laptop, a business relationship with Apple, and realistically a phone because emulator only sucks then that's a business decision if the juice is worth the squeeze.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
    >Apple's network effect is basically zero. >There's always one Android user in the friend group that spoils iMessage and FaceTime
    - Spivak 4y ago
      Yes. That's literally my point. It's really hard for Apple to establish a network effect when any group above a certain size can't use iMessage or FaceTime and have to use a 3rd party app like Discord, Snap, or Messenger. You can't be the "everyone else is one it" social network when every Apple user uses a 3rd party messenger and video chat app for at least one person. That app ends up being the winner.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - cageface 4y ago
m463 4y ago
This is naive. Apple doesn't protect you. The prime example is that apple gives apps unfettered access to network connections. And YOU are unable to block this in any meaningful way. What apple doesn't give you is the ability to manage your own phone. You cannot really manage what apps are doing yourself. You cannot even find out what apps are doing. And you definitely will not be able to manage apple apps, they get a free pass in all ways. But yes, if there's a sideloaded facebook app, or a facebook store, you will be given more rope to do with as you want.
- Aaargh20318 4y ago
  > The prime example is that apple gives apps unfettered access to network connections. (…) You cannot even find out what apps are doing. Settings -> Privacy & Security -> App Privacy Report It shows you per application what data they are accessing, which sensors they are accessing and which domains the app is contacting. It also reports when they were doing this and how often. You can even export this data as a JSON file.
  - ScoobleDoodle 4y ago
    Apparently first one has to turn it on to start gathering the usage data. I just turned it on and it started with no data. So I’ll see how it work’s going forward. Thank you for sharing.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - cryotopippto 4y ago
    Only took them iOS 15.2 for this.
    - CrampusDestrus 4y ago
      That's moving the goalpost though
iLoveOncall 4y ago
Obvious astroturfing.
wiseowise 4y ago
> Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and distribute it through other ways. With their strong position I don't have much choice - it's not like there would be five competing apps serving the same purpose (connecting to the people and communities on Facebook). iPhone is THE hottest device on the planet, I can’t believe anyone can seriously consider Facebook challenging its position.
snemvalts 4y ago
Apple's security and data collection argument for their walled garden is null and void. https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2023/02/27/beware-rogue-2fa-apps-in-app-store-and-google-play-dont-get-hacked/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2023/02/27/beware-rogue-2fa... They don't look at API calls made by the apps. How can they be your sure of the security then? Only after this was published were the apps removed.
- stefan_ 4y ago
  Every jailbreak ever has been on the magical secure "app store", too. It is really weird that people on here of all places believe in this garbage performative "app phrenology" they are doing over there.
  - walls 4y ago
    Every iOS jailbreak I've ever seen has been web or desktop based.
ntauthority 4y ago
> I don't have much choice - it's not like there would be five competing apps serving the same purpose (connecting to the people and communities on Facebook). The same legislation that is requiring Apple to allow sideloading also requires other large players (like Meta) to open their communication platforms up to other service or application developers. In this hypothetical case, there actually would be five competing apps, some even still distributed on the App Store.
DuckFeathers 4y ago
> I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies Apple could have hidden the settings to enable it behind two levels of menu settings and anyone like you would never get to it. The only reason they have "strict" policies, as has been shown over and over again, is for their commercial benefit. > Apple has been for example putting limits on data collection and tracking. I want to be tracked by apps, because it leads to better ads for products that I am actually looking for (than some random garbage that I don't care about)... and better usability in general. Apple put those rules in place so that their ad business has the edge over competitors. If Apple was running in a country that was not corrupt, this would be seen as anti-competitive and they would be sued. > Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and distribute it through other ways. And? If you want clear rules on tracking, go talk to your politician. Apple is blocking competitors from tracking users while it has access to all of users data and uses it for their $5 billion revenue business.
xorcist 4y ago
> putting limits on data collection and tracking You know who's really putting limits on data collecting? F-Droid. If that's actually your argument, that's what you should use. It's quite practical. > Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official That argument really has to explain why this has not happened on every other operating system under the sun, including Android. They all suffer pretty strong monopolistic network effects.
- Spivak 4y ago
  Because the Play Store lets Facebook have the data they want, this isn't that hard. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/02/facebook-says-apple-ios-privacy-change-will-cost-10-billion-this-year.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/02/facebook-says-apple-ios-priv...

heywoodlh 4y ago

> I don't have much choice I hope I don't come across as snarky -- I am genuinely curious -- but why don't you have a choice? Are you unable to contact friends, family, etc. any other way outside of FB? The phrasing seems so strong, I am second guessing if I am just privileged/lucky (location, friend/family circumstances, etc?) to be off of social media but still have friends and family that I stay connected to. EDIT: fixed grammar

jb1991 4y ago
I would normally agree with you, but a friend of mine is an immigrant from a south east Asian nation and the only way to easily communicate is through Facebook with the family there. It’s like saying, sure we can take away your phone and you can still write letters, but at some point communication is also about convenience.
- heywoodlh 4y ago
  That makes perfect sense, definitely sheds light on the fortunate circumstance I am in of not needing FB to conveniently communicate with my connections. Because, I agree, you should be able to conveniently communicate if you can.
- pjerem 4y ago
  Can’t this friend install something else on his phone ? Signal maybe ?
  - zamnos 4y ago
    Cool. Does signal allow you to register without a phone number yet? Data-only plans with no phone number attached are quite common in some countries.
    - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
      Telegram allows you to register without a phone number, as of recently.
    - guilamu 4y ago
      Not yet, no.
    - Hacksawed 4y ago
      By providing Signal with any phone number at which you can receive an SMS or text message, you can register a Signal account at that other phone number. For example, you can create a pseudonymous Google account, register a Google Voice VoIP number, and use that as your Signal number. Or you can even use a free throw-away SMS account and use that number when you sign up for your Signal account instead of your real phone number. The Signal service will happily send the throw-away number a text message with the verification code, letting you complete the account sign-up process.
      - rendx 4y ago
        Registration also works for numbers that can receive calls but not SMS. Like any landline you (even temporarily) have access to.
        zamnos 4y ago
        Does that work if some else has used that phone number to register an account already?
YeBanKo 4y ago
Here is an example: we are invited to my kid’s friend’s birthday. They manage the event on facebook. They had to change location and time couple of times already. We don’t want to miss it and alternatives to facebook just aren’t any better. Sometimes it’s just convenient.
- ivlad 4y ago
  Calendar invites are cross-platform and reasonably convenient. You don’t even need to subscribe to someone’s calendar, updates are vCalendar files sent over email. At least iOS and Outlook parse your inbox for vCalendar files and may update the accepted event automatically.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Derbasti 4y ago

Looking at Android, where sideloading has been available forever, there doesn't seem any evidence of your worry.

Joeri 4y ago
Apple will make it annoying enough to sideload that no meaningful amount of users will do it, causing it to be largely irrelevant. It’s only worth it to app makers to have side loading if they can do it for large numbers of users, bypass the app store’s rules, and bypass apple’s take. I’m expecting apple to set it up in a way they can do none of those things, by making it cumbersome to sideload, not giving entitlements to apps not published through the store, and by taking a cut for sales from sideloaded apps.
- rimliu 4y ago
  It is already annoying enough without Apple needing to do anything.
ivlad 4y ago
Recent example: https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-suspends-chinas-pinduoduo-app-due-malware-issues-2023-03-21/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-suspends-chinas-pi... Malicious app in alternative store, the one in Google Play is different.
- Derbasti 4y ago
  That's exactly the point, though: side loading is not something to worry about, since normal users won't and shouldn't care about it at all. It is not a threat to the Apple App Store. But it does allow for niche applications such as NewPipe and F-Droid, for technical users who know the risks.
  - ivlad 4y ago
    Almost everyone in China uses alternative stores, like Huawei or Xiaomi; how else do you think malicious PDD app got on their phones? The same applies to other counties in South-East Asia. I have seen our app for Android repackaged with malware and uploaded to an alternative store and listed there with hundreds of thousands downloads.

cageface 4y ago

Defenders of Apple's policies always say you can just use other tech if you don't agree with them. The same principle applies here. If an app requires you to use a third party app store and you don't like it then choose another app. If you feel compelled to use a product with policies you don't agree with then now you understand how many of us feel about iOS.

Spivak 4y ago
But there's no push, you can literally ignore Apple's existence and use none of their products and you'll have no care in the world. Apple's network effect is basically zero. There's always one Android user in the friend group that spoils iMessage and FaceTime so we have to use something else anyway. If you mean you feel compelled to sell in their store which requires a laptop, a business relationship with Apple, and realistically a phone because emulator only sucks then that's a business decision if the juice is worth the squeeze.
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  >Apple's network effect is basically zero. >There's always one Android user in the friend group that spoils iMessage and FaceTime
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Yes. That's literally my point. It's really hard for Apple to establish a network effect when any group above a certain size can't use iMessage or FaceTime and have to use a 3rd party app like Discord, Snap, or Messenger. You can't be the "everyone else is one it" social network when every Apple user uses a 3rd party messenger and video chat app for at least one person. That app ends up being the winner.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- cageface 4y ago

m463 4y ago

This is naive. Apple doesn't protect you. The prime example is that apple gives apps unfettered access to network connections. And YOU are unable to block this in any meaningful way. What apple doesn't give you is the ability to manage your own phone. You cannot really manage what apps are doing yourself. You cannot even find out what apps are doing. And you definitely will not be able to manage apple apps, they get a free pass in all ways. But yes, if there's a sideloaded facebook app, or a facebook store, you will be given more rope to do with as you want.

Aaargh20318 4y ago
> The prime example is that apple gives apps unfettered access to network connections. (…) You cannot even find out what apps are doing. Settings -> Privacy & Security -> App Privacy Report It shows you per application what data they are accessing, which sensors they are accessing and which domains the app is contacting. It also reports when they were doing this and how often. You can even export this data as a JSON file.
- ScoobleDoodle 4y ago
  Apparently first one has to turn it on to start gathering the usage data. I just turned it on and it started with no data. So I’ll see how it work’s going forward. Thank you for sharing.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- cryotopippto 4y ago
  Only took them iOS 15.2 for this.
  - CrampusDestrus 4y ago
    That's moving the goalpost though

iLoveOncall 4y ago

Obvious astroturfing.

wiseowise 4y ago

> Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and distribute it through other ways. With their strong position I don't have much choice - it's not like there would be five competing apps serving the same purpose (connecting to the people and communities on Facebook). iPhone is THE hottest device on the planet, I can’t believe anyone can seriously consider Facebook challenging its position.

snemvalts 4y ago

Apple's security and data collection argument for their walled garden is null and void. https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2023/02/27/beware-rogue-2fa-apps-in-app-store-and-google-play-dont-get-hacked/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2023/02/27/beware-rogue-2fa... They don't look at API calls made by the apps. How can they be your sure of the security then? Only after this was published were the apps removed.

stefan_ 4y ago
Every jailbreak ever has been on the magical secure "app store", too. It is really weird that people on here of all places believe in this garbage performative "app phrenology" they are doing over there.
- walls 4y ago
  Every iOS jailbreak I've ever seen has been web or desktop based.

ntauthority 4y ago

> I don't have much choice - it's not like there would be five competing apps serving the same purpose (connecting to the people and communities on Facebook). The same legislation that is requiring Apple to allow sideloading also requires other large players (like Meta) to open their communication platforms up to other service or application developers. In this hypothetical case, there actually would be five competing apps, some even still distributed on the App Store.

DuckFeathers 4y ago

> I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies Apple could have hidden the settings to enable it behind two levels of menu settings and anyone like you would never get to it. The only reason they have "strict" policies, as has been shown over and over again, is for their commercial benefit. > Apple has been for example putting limits on data collection and tracking. I want to be tracked by apps, because it leads to better ads for products that I am actually looking for (than some random garbage that I don't care about)... and better usability in general. Apple put those rules in place so that their ad business has the edge over competitors. If Apple was running in a country that was not corrupt, this would be seen as anti-competitive and they would be sued. > Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and distribute it through other ways. And? If you want clear rules on tracking, go talk to your politician. Apple is blocking competitors from tracking users while it has access to all of users data and uses it for their $5 billion revenue business.

xorcist 4y ago

> putting limits on data collection and tracking You know who's really putting limits on data collecting? F-Droid. If that's actually your argument, that's what you should use. It's quite practical. > Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official That argument really has to explain why this has not happened on every other operating system under the sun, including Android. They all suffer pretty strong monopolistic network effects.

Spivak 4y ago
Because the Play Store lets Facebook have the data they want, this isn't that hard. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/02/facebook-says-apple-ios-privacy-change-will-cost-10-billion-this-year.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/02/facebook-says-apple-ios-priv...