5 ms·

While that might be the choice we're making and it seems like the first is obviously what owning a device should be like. What if I actually want to pay a fee

While that might be the choice we're making and it seems like the first is obviously what owning a device should be like. What if I actually want to pay a fee to a tightly controlled service? Like what if I do the math and determine that that benefits me more than actually owning the device? Should a regulatory agency be able to come in and tell this tightly controlled service they aren't doing it right when I am a happy customer? > when discussing what rights a person should get for a piece of hardware they bought. You already pre-decided that the first answer is correct without actually asking if anyone prefers the second.

atoav 4y ago
> What if I actually want to pay a fee to a tightly controlled service? Like what if I do the math and determine that that benefits me more than actually owning the device? Should a regulatory agency be able to come in and tell this tightly controlled service they aren't doing it right when I am a happy customer? I think the default should be protection. Just like it is okay for a BDSM-scene to exist where people inflict consensual pain onto each other — the default must still be to protect the individual's right to bodily autonomy and protection from harm — even if some people, sometimes opt to waiver these rights Signing away those rights should always remain a special case and not the default. Same for ownership rights, because if the only choice is leasing, ownership ceases to exist. While when ownership exists you could still easily enter a lease.
hooby 4y ago
No, the second is perfectly fine. I pay a monthly fee for internet - and that's the admission fee I have to pay to access the service. And I get sent a modem/router - a piece of hardware - that I don't own, but that's only being lent to me. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
- zamnos 4y ago
  Are other devices allowed on the network though? If your want to rent your modem, that's your perogative. But I don't want to rent my modem. And AT&T being a convicted monopolist set precedent that means they actually are not allowed to stop me from using my own hardware. And if I'm using my own hardware, I don't need to rent their modem, which means I don't need to pay their modem rental fee.
  - hooby 4y ago
    > Are other devices allowed on the network though? By default yes - but I can switch that to only allowing devices I whitelisted through the web interface. It's not full admin rights - but for my purpose it's sufficient. > If your want to rent your modem, that's your perogative. But I don't want to rent my modem. And AT&T being a convicted monopolist set precedent that means they actually are not allowed to stop me from using my own hardware. And if I'm using my own hardware, I don't need to rent their modem, which means I don't need to pay their modem rental fee. I agree that "bring your own modem" should be fully allowed (and obviously free of any rental fee - not that I'm paying any, the modem/router comes pretty much free with the contract).
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  So apple is actually guilty of false marketing? So if apple accepts returns for their products for a reasonable amount of time, you don't really have a problem? You definitely wouldn't buy a second iPhone either since now you understand what an iPhone is, when you didn't before? What you're saying is your core problem with an iPhone is not structural, but semantic?
jkaplowitz 4y ago
Then Apple should have to call it “Subscribe to iPhone “ or “Gain admission to iPhone” or “Use iPhone” - but not “Buy iPhone” as they very much do. If you buy a piece of hardware, you buy a piece of hardware.
- NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
  You own the hardware. You're welcome to keep it on your shelf indefinitely; give it away; set it on fire. You're absolutely free to run your own software on it. Go ahead. Oh, you can't? You don't have the skills? The manufacturer made it difficult for you? The hardware prevents you? Too bad; if you wanted different hardware maybe you should have bought different hardware. Caveat emptor.
- walls 4y ago
  So you're also not buying an Xbox, Playstation, Switch, etc. right?
  - 76SlashDolphin 4y ago
    With Xboxes you have dev mode so you are definitely buying the Xbox. The Switch technically doesn't have a web browser so I wouldn't define it as a general-purpose computing device. The PS5 should definitely get a dev mode like the Xbox, otherwise while it can do general computing tasks like email, messaging, document editing by plugging in a mouse and a keyboard and you can't run your own code on it then you don't own it and are simply leasing it.
    - kiratp 4y ago
      IPhones can have apps pushed to them exactly like Xbox dev mode.
      - 76SlashDolphin 4y ago
        Not really since on Xbox you don't have a cap on sideloaded apps not a certificate expiry.

atoav 4y ago

> What if I actually want to pay a fee to a tightly controlled service? Like what if I do the math and determine that that benefits me more than actually owning the device? Should a regulatory agency be able to come in and tell this tightly controlled service they aren't doing it right when I am a happy customer? I think the default should be protection. Just like it is okay for a BDSM-scene to exist where people inflict consensual pain onto each other — the default must still be to protect the individual's right to bodily autonomy and protection from harm — even if some people, sometimes opt to waiver these rights Signing away those rights should always remain a special case and not the default. Same for ownership rights, because if the only choice is leasing, ownership ceases to exist. While when ownership exists you could still easily enter a lease.

hooby 4y ago

No, the second is perfectly fine. I pay a monthly fee for internet - and that's the admission fee I have to pay to access the service. And I get sent a modem/router - a piece of hardware - that I don't own, but that's only being lent to me. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

zamnos 4y ago
Are other devices allowed on the network though? If your want to rent your modem, that's your perogative. But I don't want to rent my modem. And AT&T being a convicted monopolist set precedent that means they actually are not allowed to stop me from using my own hardware. And if I'm using my own hardware, I don't need to rent their modem, which means I don't need to pay their modem rental fee.
- hooby 4y ago
  > Are other devices allowed on the network though? By default yes - but I can switch that to only allowing devices I whitelisted through the web interface. It's not full admin rights - but for my purpose it's sufficient. > If your want to rent your modem, that's your perogative. But I don't want to rent my modem. And AT&T being a convicted monopolist set precedent that means they actually are not allowed to stop me from using my own hardware. And if I'm using my own hardware, I don't need to rent their modem, which means I don't need to pay their modem rental fee. I agree that "bring your own modem" should be fully allowed (and obviously free of any rental fee - not that I'm paying any, the modem/router comes pretty much free with the contract).
hayst4ck 4y ago
So apple is actually guilty of false marketing? So if apple accepts returns for their products for a reasonable amount of time, you don't really have a problem? You definitely wouldn't buy a second iPhone either since now you understand what an iPhone is, when you didn't before? What you're saying is your core problem with an iPhone is not structural, but semantic?

jkaplowitz 4y ago

Then Apple should have to call it “Subscribe to iPhone “ or “Gain admission to iPhone” or “Use iPhone” - but not “Buy iPhone” as they very much do. If you buy a piece of hardware, you buy a piece of hardware.

NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
You own the hardware. You're welcome to keep it on your shelf indefinitely; give it away; set it on fire. You're absolutely free to run your own software on it. Go ahead. Oh, you can't? You don't have the skills? The manufacturer made it difficult for you? The hardware prevents you? Too bad; if you wanted different hardware maybe you should have bought different hardware. Caveat emptor.
walls 4y ago
So you're also not buying an Xbox, Playstation, Switch, etc. right?
- 76SlashDolphin 4y ago
  With Xboxes you have dev mode so you are definitely buying the Xbox. The Switch technically doesn't have a web browser so I wouldn't define it as a general-purpose computing device. The PS5 should definitely get a dev mode like the Xbox, otherwise while it can do general computing tasks like email, messaging, document editing by plugging in a mouse and a keyboard and you can't run your own code on it then you don't own it and are simply leasing it.
  - kiratp 4y ago
    IPhones can have apps pushed to them exactly like Xbox dev mode.
    - 76SlashDolphin 4y ago
      Not really since on Xbox you don't have a cap on sideloaded apps not a certificate expiry.