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As the developer of a subscription app, if unfettered side-loading is allowed I'd be worried about cracked versions of my app being distributed. We've done eve

As the developer of a subscription app, if unfettered side-loading is allowed I'd be worried about cracked versions of my app being distributed. We've done everything in the client for privacy and reliability, but the obvious countermeasure would be to move functionality over to a backend. This would be history echoing the transition from boxed software to SaaS.

mrtksn 3y ago
Isn’t it a bit like the movies and music? Those who will steal will steal and those who will pay will pay anyway. There are great pirate movie websites where you can watch all the movies at about the same user experience or even better but Netflix etc are doing just fine. Piracy isn’t what it used to be but I do enjoy these sites. The real problem is the subscription fatigue and fragmentation. I won’t subscribe to all the services and Even if I have a subscription it’s easier for me to find the movies in one place. However apps are different, you are expected to open different apps for different things anyway. In apps, the danger could be something like ChatGPT becoming the main UI and doing everything the user wants from there.
- bluesign 3y ago
  It is same if you have big audience, it is very different if you are developing for a niche market.
- tonyedgecombe 3y ago
  >Those who will steal will steal and those who will pay will pay anyway. That's not been my experience. Every time a crack appeared for my software sales went down. Every time I strengthened the licensing software sales went up. This is for B2B software, god knows what it is like if you sell to consumers.
  - shaky-carrousel 3y ago
    I lost the access to Rubymine and switched to vs code. If I can't have it free, I switch. I won't post for it, it's not worth it.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Could it be the case that B2B software is more susceptible to piracy induced revenue loss? I imagine B2B being completely utilitarian, thus "free" software would mean direct cost cuts. In B2C, generally, convenience is the king.
    - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
      Talking to my peers I get the impression it's worse for consumer oriented software.
      - mrtksn 3y ago
        Would you like to expand on that? It's always helpful to hear another perspective?
brenns10 3y ago
Except, side-loading has already existed on Android for... a long time. I regularly install from F-Droid, and it's totally possible to download an .apk from the Internet and install it. If your client was getting "cracked" it could already have been happening on Android for years (assuming you have an Android app). See also: Youtube vanced. So really what you're saying in this comment is that you've written your backend APIs with the assumption that the only user is a benevolent app which you wrote. If it's possible for somebody to take your app and tweak it to circumvent your subscription's restrictions, then what prevents a person from hooking up their phone to a development HTTPS proxy, intercepting the API requests, and making their own cracked client without side-loading at all? Side-loading is NOT a problem for subscription apps done properly, and it's NOT a problem for privacy or security, so long as the side-loading implementation is done responsibly.
- FriedPickles 3y ago
  > what prevents a person from hooking up their phone to a development HTTPS proxy, intercepting the API requests, and making their own cracked client without side-loading at all? SSL pinning, essentially. Totally true about Android--it's the smaller platform for us, but the fact we have not seen piracy there yet gives me hope. To be clear I am in favor of sideloading, and we would benefit from it in several ways.
realusername 3y ago
No study managed to prove a loss of revenue with piracy, you are not going to be the first app in the world to experience it.
- tonyedgecombe 3y ago
  https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3577670 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3577670
  - shaky-carrousel 3y ago
    That's a paid study, it's worthless. You are very disingenuous by providing it. > It has to be noted that the research was carried out as part of Carnegie Mellon University’s Initiative for Digital Entertainment Analytics (IDEA), which received a generous donation from the MPAA. https://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-block-doesnt-boost-sales-research-shows-150604/ https://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-block-doesnt-boost-sales...
  - realusername 3y ago
    I see nothing in this paper which is proving their claim. The worst part is when they talk about the drop of CD sales pre-streaming where the legal options to consume music online ... just didn't exist at all. If there's no legal option where your customers can pay you, that sure can lead to a revenue drop. The music industries have been very slow to adapt to the internet and it has cost them some revenue, I'll give you that but that has nothing to do with piracy.
    - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
      >If there's no legal option where your customers can pay you, that sure can lead to a revenue drop. But you think that all stopped as soon as there was a legal option? Do you really think there are no people out there who can afford it but chose to pirate anyway? I don't know why people find it so hard to believe other than they are trying to justify their own activity. Do you think the media industry spent all this money on anti-piracy activities just for the fun of it?
MikusR 3y ago
Sideloading/piracy is already possible on ios with stuff like altstore. It just needs to resign the app every 7 days.
- zamnos 3y ago
  Piracy was the funniest part. Originally Apple claimed they needed to control the platform and sign binaries to prevent piracy. Then, someone realized that if the pirated app didn't need to be modified, then the pirates could reuse the original signature. There was still the issue of getting the ipa onto the device, but that wasn't too hard back in the Cydia days.

mrtksn 3y ago

Isn’t it a bit like the movies and music? Those who will steal will steal and those who will pay will pay anyway. There are great pirate movie websites where you can watch all the movies at about the same user experience or even better but Netflix etc are doing just fine. Piracy isn’t what it used to be but I do enjoy these sites. The real problem is the subscription fatigue and fragmentation. I won’t subscribe to all the services and Even if I have a subscription it’s easier for me to find the movies in one place. However apps are different, you are expected to open different apps for different things anyway. In apps, the danger could be something like ChatGPT becoming the main UI and doing everything the user wants from there.

bluesign 3y ago
It is same if you have big audience, it is very different if you are developing for a niche market.
tonyedgecombe 3y ago
>Those who will steal will steal and those who will pay will pay anyway. That's not been my experience. Every time a crack appeared for my software sales went down. Every time I strengthened the licensing software sales went up. This is for B2B software, god knows what it is like if you sell to consumers.
- shaky-carrousel 3y ago
  I lost the access to Rubymine and switched to vs code. If I can't have it free, I switch. I won't post for it, it's not worth it.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Could it be the case that B2B software is more susceptible to piracy induced revenue loss? I imagine B2B being completely utilitarian, thus "free" software would mean direct cost cuts. In B2C, generally, convenience is the king.
  - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
    Talking to my peers I get the impression it's worse for consumer oriented software.
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      Would you like to expand on that? It's always helpful to hear another perspective?

brenns10 3y ago

Except, side-loading has already existed on Android for... a long time. I regularly install from F-Droid, and it's totally possible to download an .apk from the Internet and install it. If your client was getting "cracked" it could already have been happening on Android for years (assuming you have an Android app). See also: Youtube vanced. So really what you're saying in this comment is that you've written your backend APIs with the assumption that the only user is a benevolent app which you wrote. If it's possible for somebody to take your app and tweak it to circumvent your subscription's restrictions, then what prevents a person from hooking up their phone to a development HTTPS proxy, intercepting the API requests, and making their own cracked client without side-loading at all? Side-loading is NOT a problem for subscription apps done properly, and it's NOT a problem for privacy or security, so long as the side-loading implementation is done responsibly.

FriedPickles 3y ago
> what prevents a person from hooking up their phone to a development HTTPS proxy, intercepting the API requests, and making their own cracked client without side-loading at all? SSL pinning, essentially. Totally true about Android--it's the smaller platform for us, but the fact we have not seen piracy there yet gives me hope. To be clear I am in favor of sideloading, and we would benefit from it in several ways.

realusername 3y ago

No study managed to prove a loss of revenue with piracy, you are not going to be the first app in the world to experience it.

tonyedgecombe 3y ago
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3577670 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3577670
- shaky-carrousel 3y ago
  That's a paid study, it's worthless. You are very disingenuous by providing it. > It has to be noted that the research was carried out as part of Carnegie Mellon University’s Initiative for Digital Entertainment Analytics (IDEA), which received a generous donation from the MPAA. https://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-block-doesnt-boost-sales-research-shows-150604/ https://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-block-doesnt-boost-sales...
- realusername 3y ago
  I see nothing in this paper which is proving their claim. The worst part is when they talk about the drop of CD sales pre-streaming where the legal options to consume music online ... just didn't exist at all. If there's no legal option where your customers can pay you, that sure can lead to a revenue drop. The music industries have been very slow to adapt to the internet and it has cost them some revenue, I'll give you that but that has nothing to do with piracy.
  - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
    >If there's no legal option where your customers can pay you, that sure can lead to a revenue drop. But you think that all stopped as soon as there was a legal option? Do you really think there are no people out there who can afford it but chose to pirate anyway? I don't know why people find it so hard to believe other than they are trying to justify their own activity. Do you think the media industry spent all this money on anti-piracy activities just for the fun of it?

MikusR 3y ago

Sideloading/piracy is already possible on ios with stuff like altstore. It just needs to resign the app every 7 days.

zamnos 3y ago
Piracy was the funniest part. Originally Apple claimed they needed to control the platform and sign binaries to prevent piracy. Then, someone realized that if the pirated app didn't need to be modified, then the pirates could reuse the original signature. There was still the issue of getting the ipa onto the device, but that wasn't too hard back in the Cydia days.