6 ms·

As far as I'm concerned if you 'bought' something, it should be yours to do as you please, including reselling and destroying it. If you didn't buy something, b

by tpxl 3y ago

As far as I'm concerned if you 'bought' something, it should be yours to do as you please, including reselling and destroying it. If you didn't buy something, but rented it - for example a game on Steam or Epic Games store - then it should damned say so. It's a straight up lie to say you purchased something if you didn't.

rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago
Haven’t you always been able to resell and destroy the Apple products that you buy?
vladvasiliu 3y ago
I don't think those alternatives are the right ones. You can sell your iphone without any issue, there are plenty of stores around me offering to buy used models to resell. I'm actually contemplating buying a used model. Can't do that with steam games. I'm also pretty confident that if apple and their services disappeared tomorrow, my iphone would keep on working just like it does today. Sure, no more updates, no more new apps, it would be frozen in the state it's in. Therefore, I think the question is whether an iphone is a "general computing device", or "an appliance". I can see the arguments for both, even though I tend to treat mine as the latter.
- LMYahooTFY 3y ago
  > I'm also pretty confident that if apple and their services disappeared tomorrow, my iphone would keep on working just like it does today. Sure, no more updates, no more new apps, it would be frozen in the state it's in. You can hardly call that "working like it does today". It doesn't. When features on it inevitably cease to work or be interoperable, you're screwed. And every day, you're probably more vulnerable to crime. If I buy a house, I can learn to maintain it and keep it secured. I can't do that with my iPhone.
  - Muromec 3y ago
    >If I buy a house, I can learn to maintain it and keep it secured. I can't do that with my iPhone. For the argument's sake, your ability to do things to your own house is restricted by zoning, by HOA and god forbid you from buying something of historical significance in Europe -- then you can't change anything inside or outside and you are responsible for it.
    - LMYahooTFY 3y ago
      True, and those issues are subjected to the same philosophical debates. Historical buildings are often categorically different, but HOAs (for a product manufactured and sold to you, as well as the land itself) are lambasted for the same reasons.
    - PeterisP 3y ago
      I think it's important to make a distinction between the restrictions imposed by law and restrictions imposed by the seller. For pretty much every thing there are restrictions on what you can do with it - if I buy a phone, I'm prohibited from smashing it into my neighbour's face, and grinding it up and baking into the cookies I sell would be a violation of health&safety rules, but that's still full ownership. Now, if the seller wants to impose extra restrictions above and beyond what the general society does, that's a different issue.
    - justeleblanc 3y ago
      > god forbid you from buying something of historical significance in Europe -- then you can't change anything inside or outside and you are responsible for it. What an exaggeration. Do you think such hyperbole strengthens your point? At best it makes you sound ignorant.
- the_common_man 3y ago
  How would one install or update an app if apple and services disappear?
  - sverhagen 3y ago
    Ha! Sideloading!
  - stavros 3y ago
    Like the sibling comment says, sideloading. Same as how you do it on Android, where other stores exist (e.g. F-droid). It's not as convenient as the Play Store, because Google hasn't made it such, but it's not too inconvenient either. The fact that you can't even imagine how that might work points to the real problem.
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  > Therefore, I think the question is whether an iphone is a "general computing device", or "an appliance". This is a red herring. What matters is your freedom to use, repair, modify, resell, loan etc the hardware you bought and own.
- aeyes 3y ago
  If Apple disappears all push notifications will stop working, even the ones from apps you already installed. This is another restriction of the walled garden.
- codethief 3y ago
  > I'm also pretty confident that if apple and their services disappeared tomorrow, my iphone would keep on working just like it does today. Sure, no more updates, no more new apps, it would be frozen in the state it's in. I think you're underestimating how much of the iPhone's functionality depends on Apple's servers being available beyond just installing & updating apps: Think push notifications, backups, iCloud, iMessage, no more Safari updates (shiver), …
- kuschku 3y ago
  I added a wifi relay to my washing machine to add it to home assistant. How do I add my own apps to my iPhone, permanently?
- hamilyon2 3y ago
  I am semi-confident that with how anti-stealing feature works in iPhone, if apple servers are permanently down, few thousand phone owners a day will lose access to their phone forever. Not only to data, that is the part of encryption deal. To the device itself. Otherwise, stealing would be very easy - just connect to wifi without access to apple servers and voila: phone is yours.
hooby 3y ago
I agree. Anyone should be allowed to repair, tinker with and modify anything they own - at their own risk. When it comes to software, that's only possible to do with open source. With closed source you're only ever buying a perpetual usage license. (Unless you are a company buying out another company or it's assets, that is). It's complicated, because software and digital data is inherently different from physical goods - and all those concepts of "selling" a "copy" are just rather ramshackle attempts at making digital goods compatible with laws designed for physical goods.
mrighele 3y ago
"If you didn't buy something, but rented it - for example a game on Steam or Epic Games store" I don't know about the other one, but in the Steam store I see "Buy" buttons, not "Rent". "Buy <game name>" in the store page, then when you go a "Shopping Cart", where you can "Purchase" the game. To me (and to the average people, I guess) it doesn't sound as a rental service at all. I'm sure that their ToS says otherwise, but I wonder how it would fare in a court case...
- stavros 3y ago
  That's the GP's point, they rent you games but the language they use is "buy", and they shouldn't. They should say "rent" instead.
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    It's not quite as simple, the main reason for the 'rent' argument is DRM (e.g. most Steam games will stop working if the Steam client can't phone home for a while), but some games on Steam are actually DRM free - it's a very small minority though.
    - tommica 3y ago
      Gog is a good example of how it should be done - you buy the game, and it can be played without needing their servers to be accessible
  - Closi 3y ago
    You are (usually) buying a perpetual licence which is revocable, not renting a licence, so the language is correct. Common usage of the word 'buy' also applies here - the term 'rent' would be confusing to a customer and would usually imply it being time-limited (often days).
    - stavros 3y ago
      Yeah, if I'm buying a revocable license, the language should be "renting". It's not the same as having ownership over the thing I'm licensing.
beebeepka 3y ago
Games on steam are not rented
- herbst 3y ago
  They pretty much are according to their ToS
  - beebeepka 3y ago
    Laws trump ToS of any kind. Do you disagree with that? If things are different in your jurisdiction, please do share how and why
    - herbst 3y ago
      I agree (hence the whole topic) however in practice steam has full control. If steam servers shut down tomorrow and the client destroys itself most games will refuse to start.
    - blendergeek 3y ago
      > Laws trump ToS of any kind. Do you disagree with that? What do you mean by that? The steam ToS (which are enforceable by law) make pretty clear that Valve can revoke your access to any game at any time. Further, your access is dependent on Valve's continued existence. The argument that you are "buying a license" is like saying you "buy a rental contract" at a car rental place. The contract you have with Valve to play the game allows you to play the game for an indefinite period of time, but crucially only while Valve is still in business and while they let you play the game. This is in the ToS and in the USA there is no reason (IANAL) that I see to think the courts won't enforce this contract. > If things are different in your jurisdiction, please do share how and why Which law in your jurisdiction makes the Valve ToS feel more like a purchase and less like a rental?
      - oblak 3y ago
        Are you seriously arguing that ToS somehow override laws? Since you're not a lawyer (your words) and seem to care about US laws (I don't), I am not sure what's the point of this response to a topic about digital purchases in the EU.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hayst4ck 3y ago
If we were being very pedantic, what would you say is the test of ownership? If you buy an iPhone you can sell it or destroy it, so it meets those requirements of ownership. You can't destroy something you're renting, so you clearly aren't renting an iPhone. How would I know if I own a device or not? If you buy an iPhone, but don't think you own it. Why don't you think you own it? If your response is "because I can't run the software I want to on it," is that a problem with the perception of what you bought or is that a violation of the idea of ownership? If that's a violation of the idea of ownership, why?
- letier 3y ago
  If you’re required to accept license agreements to be able to use the device and those agreements restrict you in how you use it, then I see this as a restriction to your ownership. Especially if the terms are opaque and not clearly communicated before the purchase.
- PeterisP 3y ago
  Property law has been deep on all the various aspects of ownership for millenia, so there's a big "bundle of rights" which any specific type of ownership may or may not have. One test for "full ownership" is the contractual restrictions that come attached; i.e. whether the law is the only thing that limits what you can do with the thing, or whether there are some extra conditions (which are not that rare in e.g. real estate deals for as long as we have recorded history); that's generally considered ownership but a restricted one. On the other hand, if you aren't prohibited to do that thing but simply aren't capable of doing it, that would still be considered unrestricted ownership. But something that is a key part of ownership - especially with respect to various "buying" of e.g. games - is the ability to transfer it to others. If you can't give or sell the thing you've purchased to someone else, that clearly indicates that you don't own it.
- tchalla 3y ago
  > If we were being very pedantic, what would you say is the test of ownership? Here's the concept of ownership for private property in German Law. It's broadly defined as 1) Exclusive Rights, 2) Transferability, 3) Protection against Unlawful Interference, 4) Compensation for Expropriation and 5) Inheritance and Succession.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
justeleblanc 3y ago
Do you buy movie tickets, or do you rent them?
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  Unlike with games, you can resell movie tickets. So you buy them.
  - justeleblanc 3y ago
    https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-steam-valve-used-games-eu-law https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-stea...
  - anticensor 3y ago
    Movie tickets are actually issued to a certain ID in some jurisdictions.

by tpxl 3y ago

rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago

Haven’t you always been able to resell and destroy the Apple products that you buy?

vladvasiliu 3y ago

I don't think those alternatives are the right ones. You can sell your iphone without any issue, there are plenty of stores around me offering to buy used models to resell. I'm actually contemplating buying a used model. Can't do that with steam games. I'm also pretty confident that if apple and their services disappeared tomorrow, my iphone would keep on working just like it does today. Sure, no more updates, no more new apps, it would be frozen in the state it's in. Therefore, I think the question is whether an iphone is a "general computing device", or "an appliance". I can see the arguments for both, even though I tend to treat mine as the latter.

LMYahooTFY 3y ago
> I'm also pretty confident that if apple and their services disappeared tomorrow, my iphone would keep on working just like it does today. Sure, no more updates, no more new apps, it would be frozen in the state it's in. You can hardly call that "working like it does today". It doesn't. When features on it inevitably cease to work or be interoperable, you're screwed. And every day, you're probably more vulnerable to crime. If I buy a house, I can learn to maintain it and keep it secured. I can't do that with my iPhone.
- Muromec 3y ago
  >If I buy a house, I can learn to maintain it and keep it secured. I can't do that with my iPhone. For the argument's sake, your ability to do things to your own house is restricted by zoning, by HOA and god forbid you from buying something of historical significance in Europe -- then you can't change anything inside or outside and you are responsible for it.
  - LMYahooTFY 3y ago
    True, and those issues are subjected to the same philosophical debates. Historical buildings are often categorically different, but HOAs (for a product manufactured and sold to you, as well as the land itself) are lambasted for the same reasons.
  - PeterisP 3y ago
    I think it's important to make a distinction between the restrictions imposed by law and restrictions imposed by the seller. For pretty much every thing there are restrictions on what you can do with it - if I buy a phone, I'm prohibited from smashing it into my neighbour's face, and grinding it up and baking into the cookies I sell would be a violation of health&safety rules, but that's still full ownership. Now, if the seller wants to impose extra restrictions above and beyond what the general society does, that's a different issue.
  - justeleblanc 3y ago
    > god forbid you from buying something of historical significance in Europe -- then you can't change anything inside or outside and you are responsible for it. What an exaggeration. Do you think such hyperbole strengthens your point? At best it makes you sound ignorant.
the_common_man 3y ago
How would one install or update an app if apple and services disappear?
- sverhagen 3y ago
  Ha! Sideloading!
- stavros 3y ago
  Like the sibling comment says, sideloading. Same as how you do it on Android, where other stores exist (e.g. F-droid). It's not as convenient as the Play Store, because Google hasn't made it such, but it's not too inconvenient either. The fact that you can't even imagine how that might work points to the real problem.
heavyset_go 3y ago
> Therefore, I think the question is whether an iphone is a "general computing device", or "an appliance". This is a red herring. What matters is your freedom to use, repair, modify, resell, loan etc the hardware you bought and own.
aeyes 3y ago
If Apple disappears all push notifications will stop working, even the ones from apps you already installed. This is another restriction of the walled garden.
codethief 3y ago
> I'm also pretty confident that if apple and their services disappeared tomorrow, my iphone would keep on working just like it does today. Sure, no more updates, no more new apps, it would be frozen in the state it's in. I think you're underestimating how much of the iPhone's functionality depends on Apple's servers being available beyond just installing & updating apps: Think push notifications, backups, iCloud, iMessage, no more Safari updates (shiver), …
kuschku 3y ago
I added a wifi relay to my washing machine to add it to home assistant. How do I add my own apps to my iPhone, permanently?
hamilyon2 3y ago
I am semi-confident that with how anti-stealing feature works in iPhone, if apple servers are permanently down, few thousand phone owners a day will lose access to their phone forever. Not only to data, that is the part of encryption deal. To the device itself. Otherwise, stealing would be very easy - just connect to wifi without access to apple servers and voila: phone is yours.

hooby 3y ago

I agree. Anyone should be allowed to repair, tinker with and modify anything they own - at their own risk. When it comes to software, that's only possible to do with open source. With closed source you're only ever buying a perpetual usage license. (Unless you are a company buying out another company or it's assets, that is). It's complicated, because software and digital data is inherently different from physical goods - and all those concepts of "selling" a "copy" are just rather ramshackle attempts at making digital goods compatible with laws designed for physical goods.

mrighele 3y ago

"If you didn't buy something, but rented it - for example a game on Steam or Epic Games store" I don't know about the other one, but in the Steam store I see "Buy" buttons, not "Rent". "Buy <game name>" in the store page, then when you go a "Shopping Cart", where you can "Purchase" the game. To me (and to the average people, I guess) it doesn't sound as a rental service at all. I'm sure that their ToS says otherwise, but I wonder how it would fare in a court case...

stavros 3y ago
That's the GP's point, they rent you games but the language they use is "buy", and they shouldn't. They should say "rent" instead.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  It's not quite as simple, the main reason for the 'rent' argument is DRM (e.g. most Steam games will stop working if the Steam client can't phone home for a while), but some games on Steam are actually DRM free - it's a very small minority though.
  - tommica 3y ago
    Gog is a good example of how it should be done - you buy the game, and it can be played without needing their servers to be accessible
- Closi 3y ago
  You are (usually) buying a perpetual licence which is revocable, not renting a licence, so the language is correct. Common usage of the word 'buy' also applies here - the term 'rent' would be confusing to a customer and would usually imply it being time-limited (often days).
  - stavros 3y ago
    Yeah, if I'm buying a revocable license, the language should be "renting". It's not the same as having ownership over the thing I'm licensing.

beebeepka 3y ago

Games on steam are not rented

herbst 3y ago
They pretty much are according to their ToS
- beebeepka 3y ago
  Laws trump ToS of any kind. Do you disagree with that? If things are different in your jurisdiction, please do share how and why
  - herbst 3y ago
    I agree (hence the whole topic) however in practice steam has full control. If steam servers shut down tomorrow and the client destroys itself most games will refuse to start.
  - blendergeek 3y ago
    > Laws trump ToS of any kind. Do you disagree with that? What do you mean by that? The steam ToS (which are enforceable by law) make pretty clear that Valve can revoke your access to any game at any time. Further, your access is dependent on Valve's continued existence. The argument that you are "buying a license" is like saying you "buy a rental contract" at a car rental place. The contract you have with Valve to play the game allows you to play the game for an indefinite period of time, but crucially only while Valve is still in business and while they let you play the game. This is in the ToS and in the USA there is no reason (IANAL) that I see to think the courts won't enforce this contract. > If things are different in your jurisdiction, please do share how and why Which law in your jurisdiction makes the Valve ToS feel more like a purchase and less like a rental?
    - oblak 3y ago
      Are you seriously arguing that ToS somehow override laws? Since you're not a lawyer (your words) and seem to care about US laws (I don't), I am not sure what's the point of this response to a topic about digital purchases in the EU.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hayst4ck 3y ago

If we were being very pedantic, what would you say is the test of ownership? If you buy an iPhone you can sell it or destroy it, so it meets those requirements of ownership. You can't destroy something you're renting, so you clearly aren't renting an iPhone. How would I know if I own a device or not? If you buy an iPhone, but don't think you own it. Why don't you think you own it? If your response is "because I can't run the software I want to on it," is that a problem with the perception of what you bought or is that a violation of the idea of ownership? If that's a violation of the idea of ownership, why?

letier 3y ago
If you’re required to accept license agreements to be able to use the device and those agreements restrict you in how you use it, then I see this as a restriction to your ownership. Especially if the terms are opaque and not clearly communicated before the purchase.
PeterisP 3y ago
Property law has been deep on all the various aspects of ownership for millenia, so there's a big "bundle of rights" which any specific type of ownership may or may not have. One test for "full ownership" is the contractual restrictions that come attached; i.e. whether the law is the only thing that limits what you can do with the thing, or whether there are some extra conditions (which are not that rare in e.g. real estate deals for as long as we have recorded history); that's generally considered ownership but a restricted one. On the other hand, if you aren't prohibited to do that thing but simply aren't capable of doing it, that would still be considered unrestricted ownership. But something that is a key part of ownership - especially with respect to various "buying" of e.g. games - is the ability to transfer it to others. If you can't give or sell the thing you've purchased to someone else, that clearly indicates that you don't own it.
tchalla 3y ago
> If we were being very pedantic, what would you say is the test of ownership? Here's the concept of ownership for private property in German Law. It's broadly defined as 1) Exclusive Rights, 2) Transferability, 3) Protection against Unlawful Interference, 4) Compensation for Expropriation and 5) Inheritance and Succession.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

justeleblanc 3y ago

Do you buy movie tickets, or do you rent them?

AlexandrB 3y ago
Unlike with games, you can resell movie tickets. So you buy them.
- justeleblanc 3y ago
  https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-steam-valve-used-games-eu-law https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/19/20874384/french-court-stea...
- anticensor 3y ago
  Movie tickets are actually issued to a certain ID in some jurisdictions.