4 ms·

> never been seen before Hong Kong just did it. They weren't successful. Brazil a decade ago was also driven by cost of living and they won. US? I don't know

by rcpt 4y ago

> never been seen before Hong Kong just did it. They weren't successful. Brazil a decade ago was also driven by cost of living and they won. US? I don't know. Occupy Wall Street was eradicated with terrifying efficiency. I'm not that optimistic about social movements here.

atyppo 4y ago
I think it’s a lack of uniform culture that makes it difficult for movements to succeed in the US. Combine that with demagoguery and other fear tactics used by politicians and it slows progress to a halt.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Occupy Wall Street was eradicated with terrifying efficiency I dropped by Occupy a few times. They did themselves in by failing to specify demands. All form and no substance.
- pydry 4y ago
  Wealth redistribution and getting money out of politics. I guess not everybody understands this concept? The media did a pretty good job of depicting people being dragged away by riot police screaming as hippies getting bored and leaving.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Wealth redistribution and getting money out of politics. I guess not everybody understands this concept? This isn’t an ask. It’s a general grievance. > media did a pretty good job of depicting people being dragged away by riot police screaming as hippies getting bored and leaving I was there. Never saw screaming people dragged around. Did see tear gas, which isn’t nice. Not saying it didn’t happen, but it wasn’t common. Mostly, people were yelling at each other about stuff being stolen from their tents.
    - pydry 4y ago
      >This isn’t an ask. It’s a general grievance It's pretty obviously both. >I was there. Never saw screaming people dragged around. Did see tear gas, which isn’t nice Thats the system using violence to defend itself. Just like in Russia.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > pretty obviously both It’s not. “Redistribute wealth” isn’t a policy. It’s better than money in politics, though, because we don’t even have consensus on what that means. This is what policy looks like, even in general terms: 1) More-progressive taxation 2) Universal healthcare 3) Closing New York’s LLC loophole (done) Et cetera. Unfortunately, delineating these policies, agreeing to them internally and then messaging on them externally is a lot more work than spouting general grievances. > the system using violence to defend itself. Just like in Russia. It’s the system clearing a public park. Nobody cared what people were asking for at that point, the place smelled of piss. You lost credibility with the false comparison with Russia, but I think you know that.
  - karaterobot 4y ago
    > Wealth redistribution and getting money out of politics. I guess not everybody understands this concept? Those are so vague as to be meaningless, and so sweeping as to be quixotic. Protests always fail when there is not a clear and attainable path to success. This is something successful movements understand, and unsuccessful ones don't.
    - pydry 4y ago
      Inequality is objectively measurable with a single number. They want that number to be pushed down. Are you under the impression that this is a complicated demand?
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > Inequality is objectively measurable with a single number No, it isn’t. Let’s start with scoping. Everyone in America is immeasurably better off than the median in some countries. Clearly not what anyone in Zuccotti Park meant. > Are you under the impression that this is a complicated demand? Are you under the impression it’s not? It would push down inequality to remove student loan and public transport subsidies in cities and cut cheques to the poorest rural Americans. That’s obviously not what was wanted by those protesters.
        pydry 4y ago
        >Everyone in America is immeasurably better off than the median in some countries. 1. This is not a logical argument - it is a red herring combined with whataboutism (forget American gini! whatabout global gini?!). 2. If you take into account that they have to pay rent in America, go to college in America and pay for medical care in America the median American may live in the richest country in the world but that doesn't make them the richest median citizens. Not even close. >Are you under the impression it’s not? Of course. I'm not the one playing dumb for political effect here. >It would push down inequality ... to cut cheques to the poorest rural Americans. That’s obviously not what was wanted by those protesters. No, it is. And the US establishment violently crushed the protest precisely because this is the furthest thing from their preferred outcome. I'm guessing you approved?
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    The people you're protesting against can't respond to "concepts." Have a list of specific demands, or don't expect anything to actually happen.

by rcpt 4y ago

atyppo 4y ago

I think it’s a lack of uniform culture that makes it difficult for movements to succeed in the US. Combine that with demagoguery and other fear tactics used by politicians and it slows progress to a halt.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> Occupy Wall Street was eradicated with terrifying efficiency I dropped by Occupy a few times. They did themselves in by failing to specify demands. All form and no substance.

pydry 4y ago
Wealth redistribution and getting money out of politics. I guess not everybody understands this concept? The media did a pretty good job of depicting people being dragged away by riot police screaming as hippies getting bored and leaving.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Wealth redistribution and getting money out of politics. I guess not everybody understands this concept? This isn’t an ask. It’s a general grievance. > media did a pretty good job of depicting people being dragged away by riot police screaming as hippies getting bored and leaving I was there. Never saw screaming people dragged around. Did see tear gas, which isn’t nice. Not saying it didn’t happen, but it wasn’t common. Mostly, people were yelling at each other about stuff being stolen from their tents.
  - pydry 4y ago
    >This isn’t an ask. It’s a general grievance It's pretty obviously both. >I was there. Never saw screaming people dragged around. Did see tear gas, which isn’t nice Thats the system using violence to defend itself. Just like in Russia.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > pretty obviously both It’s not. “Redistribute wealth” isn’t a policy. It’s better than money in politics, though, because we don’t even have consensus on what that means. This is what policy looks like, even in general terms: 1) More-progressive taxation 2) Universal healthcare 3) Closing New York’s LLC loophole (done) Et cetera. Unfortunately, delineating these policies, agreeing to them internally and then messaging on them externally is a lot more work than spouting general grievances. > the system using violence to defend itself. Just like in Russia. It’s the system clearing a public park. Nobody cared what people were asking for at that point, the place smelled of piss. You lost credibility with the false comparison with Russia, but I think you know that.
- karaterobot 4y ago
  > Wealth redistribution and getting money out of politics. I guess not everybody understands this concept? Those are so vague as to be meaningless, and so sweeping as to be quixotic. Protests always fail when there is not a clear and attainable path to success. This is something successful movements understand, and unsuccessful ones don't.
  - pydry 4y ago
    Inequality is objectively measurable with a single number. They want that number to be pushed down. Are you under the impression that this is a complicated demand?
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > Inequality is objectively measurable with a single number No, it isn’t. Let’s start with scoping. Everyone in America is immeasurably better off than the median in some countries. Clearly not what anyone in Zuccotti Park meant. > Are you under the impression that this is a complicated demand? Are you under the impression it’s not? It would push down inequality to remove student loan and public transport subsidies in cities and cut cheques to the poorest rural Americans. That’s obviously not what was wanted by those protesters.
      - pydry 4y ago
        >Everyone in America is immeasurably better off than the median in some countries. 1. This is not a logical argument - it is a red herring combined with whataboutism (forget American gini! whatabout global gini?!). 2. If you take into account that they have to pay rent in America, go to college in America and pay for medical care in America the median American may live in the richest country in the world but that doesn't make them the richest median citizens. Not even close. >Are you under the impression it’s not? Of course. I'm not the one playing dumb for political effect here. >It would push down inequality ... to cut cheques to the poorest rural Americans. That’s obviously not what was wanted by those protesters. No, it is. And the US establishment violently crushed the protest precisely because this is the furthest thing from their preferred outcome. I'm guessing you approved?
- listenallyall 4y ago
  The people you're protesting against can't respond to "concepts." Have a list of specific demands, or don't expect anything to actually happen.