3 ms·

The issue isn't just natural gas leaking out of the distribution system. It's also the enormous methane output of the cattle industry. There are thirty million

The issue isn't just natural gas leaking out of the distribution system. It's also the enormous methane output of the cattle industry. There are thirty million cows in the US alone. Each is producing 150 to 300lb of methane per year.

matthewdgreen 4y ago
It is also the fact that both wetlands and melting permafrost emit methane, and both sources seem to be increasing their emissions as the world warms. This is a scary feedback loop, and that’s before we get to things like undersea clathrates.
- zackees 4y ago
  [dead]
- revelio 4y ago
  Such dangerous feedback loops are conjectured but not actually a threat. It can be proven with historical evidence like this paper, which shows that during the Roman times it must have been much hotter than today, like somewhere between 3-7 degrees hotter, based on the discovery of bison fossils in the Alps. This is well beyond the level climatologists claim would cause runaway feedback driven global warming and mass extinction, yet that didn't happen. The historical records don't contain any reference to climate meltdowns around that time, and humanity obviously wasn't wiped out by anything. http://www.museumgolling.at/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/9_Schaer_Wisent_published.pdf http://www.museumgolling.at/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/9_Sch... These wisent remains from alpine caves are all from sites now in the subalpine to alpine zone. From this it can be concluded that the beech limit but also the forest line during the »wisent time« (6,000 to 1,200 years before today) was much higher and the average summer temperature had to be at least 3 to 6 °C higher than today Oaks (Quercus) at an altitude of 1,450 metres around 2,000 years ago also indicate a climate approximately 4 to 7 °C warmer than today There's a lot of evidence pointing in the same direction. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67281-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67281-2 This record comparison consistently shows the Roman as the warmest period of the last 2 kyr, about 2 °C warmer than average values for the late centuries for the Sicily and Western Mediterranean regions. Yet according to scientists, "Temperature rises over 2 degrees could bring catastrophic and potentially irreversible impacts, including pushing three billion people into chronic water scarcity." https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/30/world/global-warming-critical-threshold-climate-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/30/world/global-warming-crit...
  - matthewdgreen 4y ago
    This sounds like a bunch of irrelevant nonsense. Not sure why you would post it.
    - BlueTemplar 4y ago
      It's not irrelevant, but there's a lot of extra information that he is leaving out... other variables ? rate of change ?
      - revelio 4y ago
        Not knowingly leaving out. Happy to debate such variables. What's your proposed hypothesis?
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      Unfortunately, looking at this (pretty new) account's recent posts makes me think you may be arguing in good faith against a climate change troll. It's just a general pattern of Gish-galloping, and relying on the principle that disproving bullshit takes lot more effort than spewing it.
      - matthewdgreen 4y ago
        Absolutely. I'm just more fascinated by the idea that there are still such climate change trolls out there in 2023, and they're wasting time on HN. I thought they'd moved away from straight denial and on to bad-faith arguments against renewables.
      - revelio 4y ago
        A response like "that looks like nonsense" isn't arguing in good faith, is it. That's not even arguing at all. It's the shallow dismissal of someone who doesn't know how to respond to unexpected evidence of incorrectness.
    - revelio 4y ago
      You assert a feedback loop that is reached at a certain absolute temperature level, I respond with evidence that it can't exist (otherwise it would have already triggered), and your reply is that you can't even understand the link between these two things?
flavius29663 4y ago
How many buffalo were in the US before industrialization? I get 30 to 60 million.
- bjoli 4y ago
  In a circular ecosystem that sustained that population. Any co2e they produced would be offset by natural processes (and in some cases they would store co2). They moved over almost all of the US and a large chunk of Canada in a system that had evolved to accommodate them. It is not comparable to the current system with domesticated animals at all.
caeril 4y ago
Cattle are no different from any other herbivorous ruminant in terms of methane production, and the wild population is larger than our own herds. Do you also propose we exterminate every wild deer, elk, moose, buffalo, hippopotamus, elephant, giraffe, etc?
- dmurray 4y ago
  > the wild population is larger than our own herds. It is not. Domesticated cows make up approximately 35% of the world's mammal biomass. That's the same as humans. All wild land animals combined - all the ones you mentioned and many more - make up around 2%. One source: https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass
  - flavius29663 4y ago
    before modern man, there were 30-60 mil buffaloes in the US, now there are 30 mil cows. It's kinda a net zero
    - gameman144 4y ago
      There are around 1.5 billion cows alive today.
    - the_why_of_y 4y ago
      The "Cattle Inventory: United States" chart here claims there are 95 million, down from a peak of 130 million in 1970s. https://cairncrestfarm.com/blog/how-many-cows-are-there-in-the-world/ https://cairncrestfarm.com/blog/how-many-cows-are-there-in-t...
      - flavius29663 4y ago
        I guess it depends how you count them: > Other key findings in the report were: Of the 89.3 million head inventory, all cows and heifers that have calved totaled 38.3 million. There are 28.9 million beef cows in the United States as of Jan. 1, 2023, down 4% from last year. The number of milk cows in the United States increased to 9.40 million. U.S. calf crop was estimated at 34.5 million head, down 2% from 2021. All cattle on feed were at 14.2 million head, down 4% from 2022. from https://www.nass.usda.gov/Newsroom/2023/01-31-2023.php https://www.nass.usda.gov/Newsroom/2023/01-31-2023.php So the question is: did they estimate the young buffalo calves as well? That seems to be what brings the cow total number from 40 to 90 million.

matthewdgreen 4y ago

It is also the fact that both wetlands and melting permafrost emit methane, and both sources seem to be increasing their emissions as the world warms. This is a scary feedback loop, and that’s before we get to things like undersea clathrates.

zackees 4y ago
[dead]
revelio 4y ago
Such dangerous feedback loops are conjectured but not actually a threat. It can be proven with historical evidence like this paper, which shows that during the Roman times it must have been much hotter than today, like somewhere between 3-7 degrees hotter, based on the discovery of bison fossils in the Alps. This is well beyond the level climatologists claim would cause runaway feedback driven global warming and mass extinction, yet that didn't happen. The historical records don't contain any reference to climate meltdowns around that time, and humanity obviously wasn't wiped out by anything. http://www.museumgolling.at/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/9_Schaer_Wisent_published.pdf http://www.museumgolling.at/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/9_Sch... These wisent remains from alpine caves are all from sites now in the subalpine to alpine zone. From this it can be concluded that the beech limit but also the forest line during the »wisent time« (6,000 to 1,200 years before today) was much higher and the average summer temperature had to be at least 3 to 6 °C higher than today Oaks (Quercus) at an altitude of 1,450 metres around 2,000 years ago also indicate a climate approximately 4 to 7 °C warmer than today There's a lot of evidence pointing in the same direction. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67281-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67281-2 This record comparison consistently shows the Roman as the warmest period of the last 2 kyr, about 2 °C warmer than average values for the late centuries for the Sicily and Western Mediterranean regions. Yet according to scientists, "Temperature rises over 2 degrees could bring catastrophic and potentially irreversible impacts, including pushing three billion people into chronic water scarcity." https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/30/world/global-warming-critical-threshold-climate-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/30/world/global-warming-crit...
- matthewdgreen 4y ago
  This sounds like a bunch of irrelevant nonsense. Not sure why you would post it.
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    It's not irrelevant, but there's a lot of extra information that he is leaving out... other variables ? rate of change ?
    - revelio 4y ago
      Not knowingly leaving out. Happy to debate such variables. What's your proposed hypothesis?
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    Unfortunately, looking at this (pretty new) account's recent posts makes me think you may be arguing in good faith against a climate change troll. It's just a general pattern of Gish-galloping, and relying on the principle that disproving bullshit takes lot more effort than spewing it.
    - matthewdgreen 4y ago
      Absolutely. I'm just more fascinated by the idea that there are still such climate change trolls out there in 2023, and they're wasting time on HN. I thought they'd moved away from straight denial and on to bad-faith arguments against renewables.
    - revelio 4y ago
      A response like "that looks like nonsense" isn't arguing in good faith, is it. That's not even arguing at all. It's the shallow dismissal of someone who doesn't know how to respond to unexpected evidence of incorrectness.
  - revelio 4y ago
    You assert a feedback loop that is reached at a certain absolute temperature level, I respond with evidence that it can't exist (otherwise it would have already triggered), and your reply is that you can't even understand the link between these two things?

flavius29663 4y ago

How many buffalo were in the US before industrialization? I get 30 to 60 million.

bjoli 4y ago
In a circular ecosystem that sustained that population. Any co2e they produced would be offset by natural processes (and in some cases they would store co2). They moved over almost all of the US and a large chunk of Canada in a system that had evolved to accommodate them. It is not comparable to the current system with domesticated animals at all.

caeril 4y ago

Cattle are no different from any other herbivorous ruminant in terms of methane production, and the wild population is larger than our own herds. Do you also propose we exterminate every wild deer, elk, moose, buffalo, hippopotamus, elephant, giraffe, etc?

dmurray 4y ago
> the wild population is larger than our own herds. It is not. Domesticated cows make up approximately 35% of the world's mammal biomass. That's the same as humans. All wild land animals combined - all the ones you mentioned and many more - make up around 2%. One source: https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass
- flavius29663 4y ago
  before modern man, there were 30-60 mil buffaloes in the US, now there are 30 mil cows. It's kinda a net zero
  - gameman144 4y ago
    There are around 1.5 billion cows alive today.
  - the_why_of_y 4y ago
    The "Cattle Inventory: United States" chart here claims there are 95 million, down from a peak of 130 million in 1970s. https://cairncrestfarm.com/blog/how-many-cows-are-there-in-the-world/ https://cairncrestfarm.com/blog/how-many-cows-are-there-in-t...
    - flavius29663 4y ago
      I guess it depends how you count them: > Other key findings in the report were: Of the 89.3 million head inventory, all cows and heifers that have calved totaled 38.3 million. There are 28.9 million beef cows in the United States as of Jan. 1, 2023, down 4% from last year. The number of milk cows in the United States increased to 9.40 million. U.S. calf crop was estimated at 34.5 million head, down 2% from 2021. All cattle on feed were at 14.2 million head, down 4% from 2022. from https://www.nass.usda.gov/Newsroom/2023/01-31-2023.php https://www.nass.usda.gov/Newsroom/2023/01-31-2023.php So the question is: did they estimate the young buffalo calves as well? That seems to be what brings the cow total number from 40 to 90 million.