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Sanders had “college for all” proposal as part of his 2020 campaign [1]. He came pretty close to winning. [1] https://jayapal.house.gov/2021/04/21/college-for

by r00fus 4y ago

Sanders had “college for all” proposal as part of his 2020 campaign [1]. He came pretty close to winning. [1] https://jayapal.house.gov/2021/04/21/college-for-all/ https://jayapal.house.gov/2021/04/21/college-for-all/

dymk 4y ago
I don’t think it’s a good idea to use blindly throw tax dollars at degrees which ultimately aren’t going to produce any economic value. We should be taking this idea and applying it to trades schools, though.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  You assume they have no value, which is a popular talking point pushed by those who are anti-liberal (and therefore don't want people educated) or care only for low taxes (I'm not saying that's you, just that you repeating it.) But repetition, as we learn in college, has zero relationship to accuracy. First, a goal of any talking point, which the reactionaries construct at a very sophisticated level (a skill of the humanities, which they want to deny to everyone else), is to frame the question. By making it a question of purely economic value, that would seem to attack liberalism and education at their weakest point - kind of like wanting to take down Tom Brady's reputation and so defining quarterbacks by their running ability. Again, understanding that is a product of humanities education. Life, freedom, the welfare of the nation, depend on far more than economic output. That's just one element of many. And also, we have very strong evidence that college degrees do have great economic value: The people whose economic success depends on it will pay people with college degrees far more. Where is your evidence otherwise? My personal experience, and current experience with someone currently in college, is the education is invaluable. It's transformative. I can't imagine who I would be without what the knowledge and especially the thinking that I learned in college.
  - orangecat 4y ago
    And also, we have very strong evidence that college degrees do have great economic value Yes. Which is why it's absurd for for people who obtained this valuable asset to demand handouts from people who didn't.
    - danaris 4y ago
      You are conflating "economic value to the educated" with "value to the economy". In aggregate, having an educated populace is hugely beneficial to society as a whole, which includes economic benefits. This does not translate to commensurate economic benefits to all the individuals who get that education. Our society benefits from these people having an education; therefore, our society should pay for it.
      - wolverine876 4y ago
        It's not just transactional - i.e., 'we benefit so we pay'; don't let the reductionists frame the debate. We also should do it because people deserve freedom and opportunity. It's the Land of Opportunity, not the land of rapacious capitalism; it's the Land of Hope and Dreams, not of self-dealing.
School-Cotton 4y ago
I wouldn’t consider that a serious attempt, given that the president doesn’t have the ability to enact that by himself.
- r00fus 4y ago
  Presidents always propose budgets and lead the party. As a voter, part of your vote is not just for the President and his/her team but their agenda.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    That’s the theory, but it doesn’t really work in reality. The chance of a major reform like that ever passing is very close to zero. The last big legislative reform of anything in the US was the Affordable Care Act, which, despite being a relatively modest reform by the standards of any country with a functional political system, was a once-in-a-generation effort requiring huge amounts of political capital and luck. Any serious reform to higher education would dwarf that. When I said I wasn’t aware of any serious proposals for education reform, I didn’t mean because politicians (like Sanders) don’t want them. I meant because such a reform is impossible.
    - r00fus 4y ago
      You know what? I don’t care if it’s impossible. I want my politicians to get caught trying to do the right thing.
    - lamontcg 4y ago
      You have a self-fulfilling prophecy which you've asserted. From my perspective the fact that so many people think exactly like you do is why those proposals don't have any chance of being treated seriously. If you all treated them seriously, they would immediately become serious and therefore possible. Cynical realism ensures that we can never solve any problems.
      - School-Cotton 4y ago

by r00fus 4y ago

dymk 4y ago

I don’t think it’s a good idea to use blindly throw tax dollars at degrees which ultimately aren’t going to produce any economic value. We should be taking this idea and applying it to trades schools, though.

wolverine876 4y ago
You assume they have no value, which is a popular talking point pushed by those who are anti-liberal (and therefore don't want people educated) or care only for low taxes (I'm not saying that's you, just that you repeating it.) But repetition, as we learn in college, has zero relationship to accuracy. First, a goal of any talking point, which the reactionaries construct at a very sophisticated level (a skill of the humanities, which they want to deny to everyone else), is to frame the question. By making it a question of purely economic value, that would seem to attack liberalism and education at their weakest point - kind of like wanting to take down Tom Brady's reputation and so defining quarterbacks by their running ability. Again, understanding that is a product of humanities education. Life, freedom, the welfare of the nation, depend on far more than economic output. That's just one element of many. And also, we have very strong evidence that college degrees do have great economic value: The people whose economic success depends on it will pay people with college degrees far more. Where is your evidence otherwise? My personal experience, and current experience with someone currently in college, is the education is invaluable. It's transformative. I can't imagine who I would be without what the knowledge and especially the thinking that I learned in college.
- orangecat 4y ago
  And also, we have very strong evidence that college degrees do have great economic value Yes. Which is why it's absurd for for people who obtained this valuable asset to demand handouts from people who didn't.
  - danaris 4y ago
    You are conflating "economic value to the educated" with "value to the economy". In aggregate, having an educated populace is hugely beneficial to society as a whole, which includes economic benefits. This does not translate to commensurate economic benefits to all the individuals who get that education. Our society benefits from these people having an education; therefore, our society should pay for it.
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      It's not just transactional - i.e., 'we benefit so we pay'; don't let the reductionists frame the debate. We also should do it because people deserve freedom and opportunity. It's the Land of Opportunity, not the land of rapacious capitalism; it's the Land of Hope and Dreams, not of self-dealing.

School-Cotton 4y ago

I wouldn’t consider that a serious attempt, given that the president doesn’t have the ability to enact that by himself.

r00fus 4y ago
Presidents always propose budgets and lead the party. As a voter, part of your vote is not just for the President and his/her team but their agenda.
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  That’s the theory, but it doesn’t really work in reality. The chance of a major reform like that ever passing is very close to zero. The last big legislative reform of anything in the US was the Affordable Care Act, which, despite being a relatively modest reform by the standards of any country with a functional political system, was a once-in-a-generation effort requiring huge amounts of political capital and luck. Any serious reform to higher education would dwarf that. When I said I wasn’t aware of any serious proposals for education reform, I didn’t mean because politicians (like Sanders) don’t want them. I meant because such a reform is impossible.
  - r00fus 4y ago
    You know what? I don’t care if it’s impossible. I want my politicians to get caught trying to do the right thing.
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    You have a self-fulfilling prophecy which you've asserted. From my perspective the fact that so many people think exactly like you do is why those proposals don't have any chance of being treated seriously. If you all treated them seriously, they would immediately become serious and therefore possible. Cynical realism ensures that we can never solve any problems.
    - School-Cotton 4y ago