4 ms·

No, certain people decided to do that, but they didn't have to.

by baggy_trough 4y ago

lukeschlather 4y ago
No one said they had to, they said they had to in order to study. Which is not the case in more prosperous nations.
- stametseater 4y ago
  > they had to [take a huge loan] in order to study. This isn't true. If you go to a state school and work part time to cover your living expenses, you can get an undergrad degree very cheap. And the most prestigious of private schools (e.g. Ivy league) offer very generous needs-based scholarships, so if you come from a poor family you don't have to pay. You "have to" get a huge loan if you choose to attend a very expensive private school that won't give you a needs-based scholarship. But nobody has to do that, it's a choice some people make. It's a decision made by naive kids straight out of highschool so I still have some sympathy, but this narrative of necessarily having to take huge loans is part of the problem and helps to normalize this. The belief that huge loans are necessary in America is wrong and contributes to the real problem. From: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/11/01/which-states-have--the-least-and-the-most-expensive-public-colleges/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/11/01/whic... > The 2021-22 average tuition and fees sticker price for full-time, in-state students at public four-year colleges ranged from a low of $6,100 in Wyoming to a high of $17,750 in Vermont. > Following Wyoming, the least expensive states were Florida ($6,370), Montana ($7,265), Utah ($7,387), and North Carolina ($7,389). > After Vermont, the most expensive states for four-year universities were New Hampshire ($17,040), Pennsylvania ($15,312), New Jersey ($14,963), and Illinois ($14,667). > Over the past five years, average in-state tuition and fees at public four-year institutions fell in 18 states after adjusting for inflation. During that same time period, only six states (Alaska, Connecticut, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon and Rhode Island) saw their average in-state tuition increase by 10% or more. > According to the report, in 2019-20, 75% of first-time, full-time students attending public two-year colleges received federal, state or institutional grant aid. At public four-year universities, 78% of students were awarded such aid. > The average net tuition and fees paid by first-time, full-time in-state students at public four-year institutions was estimated to be $2,640, the lowest it’s been since 2006-07, down more than a $1,000 from a peak in 2012-13 of $3,720 (in 2021 dollars).
  - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
    My part time job paid me 7.50/hr, federal minimum wage. At the end of each semester I didn’t even have enough to pay for my “technology fee” much less my living expenses.
    - stametseater 4y ago
      See: > The average net tuition and fees paid by first-time, full-time in-state students at public four-year institutions was estimated to be $2,640, the lowest it’s been since 2006-07, down more than a $1,000 from a peak in 2012-13 of $3,720 (in 2021 dollars). Even if you have to take out a loan while attending a state school, it doesn't have to be a huge loan. And even a crappy part-time job will reduce that burden, even if it doesn't cover your tuition fully.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Averages which exclude scholarships, books etc really distort these numbers. Many schools require students to pay for room and board even if they live nearby. Schools are hiding tuition costs in those fees and really need people to pay them.
      - lukeschlather 4y ago
        In more prosperous countries it is simply free. There are a range of charges imposed in the US but it costs.
        simonsarris 4y ago
        Which more prosperous country? Are you also comparing median salaries after graduation in that country? How do the numbers shake out 10 years after graduation? Anyone who went to community college and makes the median wage ($69,717) in America is doing way better financially than someone who went school for free in France and makes median wage (€22,140). There's really no contest on prosperity for college grads even when you include ridiculous student loans (median for US: $22K).
  - 4y ago
- baggy_trough 4y ago
  They said that, but they were wrong.
tacitusarc 4y ago
Certain people were kids who didn’t know better and were lied to by adults they trusted.
- baggy_trough 4y ago
  Those adults should certainly be ashamed of themselves.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Sue the adults then? Surely if enough people sue some court cases against parents, or guidance counsellors or what ever pass.
  - tacitusarc 4y ago
    I agree. They should be sued. Of course it’s incredibly hard to prove and even harder to sue someone you like. And lawsuits where neither side has money are tricky. Probably universities or departments as a whole should be sued.
SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
Yeah I’m sure 17 year old me should bear the full brunt of my decision to go to college for the majority of my earning years
- dymk 4y ago
  Yes, you should. Did you choose an advantageous degree?
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    This sentiment is predicated on a scarcity mindset. This is America, I thought we were a land of abundance?
    - mannerheim 4y ago
      if you don't want to give me free money you have a scarcity mindset
    - dymk 4y ago
      You think resources are unlimited? Why would you think that?
      - soulofmischief 4y ago
        What does that have to do with "choosing an advantageous degree"? We are a land of (misappropriated) abundance and can absolutely support those who wish to engage in higher learning and push the boundaries of philosophy and science. I don't want to counter your strawman with another, but not everyone needs to get an engineering degree.
- baggy_trough 4y ago
  Should somebody else?
  - xigoi 4y ago

No, certain people decided to do that, but they didn't have to.

lukeschlather 4y ago

No one said they had to, they said they had to in order to study. Which is not the case in more prosperous nations.

stametseater 4y ago
> they had to [take a huge loan] in order to study. This isn't true. If you go to a state school and work part time to cover your living expenses, you can get an undergrad degree very cheap. And the most prestigious of private schools (e.g. Ivy league) offer very generous needs-based scholarships, so if you come from a poor family you don't have to pay. You "have to" get a huge loan if you choose to attend a very expensive private school that won't give you a needs-based scholarship. But nobody has to do that, it's a choice some people make. It's a decision made by naive kids straight out of highschool so I still have some sympathy, but this narrative of necessarily having to take huge loans is part of the problem and helps to normalize this. The belief that huge loans are necessary in America is wrong and contributes to the real problem. From: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/11/01/which-states-have--the-least-and-the-most-expensive-public-colleges/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/11/01/whic... > The 2021-22 average tuition and fees sticker price for full-time, in-state students at public four-year colleges ranged from a low of $6,100 in Wyoming to a high of $17,750 in Vermont. > Following Wyoming, the least expensive states were Florida ($6,370), Montana ($7,265), Utah ($7,387), and North Carolina ($7,389). > After Vermont, the most expensive states for four-year universities were New Hampshire ($17,040), Pennsylvania ($15,312), New Jersey ($14,963), and Illinois ($14,667). > Over the past five years, average in-state tuition and fees at public four-year institutions fell in 18 states after adjusting for inflation. During that same time period, only six states (Alaska, Connecticut, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon and Rhode Island) saw their average in-state tuition increase by 10% or more. > According to the report, in 2019-20, 75% of first-time, full-time students attending public two-year colleges received federal, state or institutional grant aid. At public four-year universities, 78% of students were awarded such aid. > The average net tuition and fees paid by first-time, full-time in-state students at public four-year institutions was estimated to be $2,640, the lowest it’s been since 2006-07, down more than a $1,000 from a peak in 2012-13 of $3,720 (in 2021 dollars).
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  My part time job paid me 7.50/hr, federal minimum wage. At the end of each semester I didn’t even have enough to pay for my “technology fee” much less my living expenses.
  - stametseater 4y ago
    See: > The average net tuition and fees paid by first-time, full-time in-state students at public four-year institutions was estimated to be $2,640, the lowest it’s been since 2006-07, down more than a $1,000 from a peak in 2012-13 of $3,720 (in 2021 dollars). Even if you have to take out a loan while attending a state school, it doesn't have to be a huge loan. And even a crappy part-time job will reduce that burden, even if it doesn't cover your tuition fully.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Averages which exclude scholarships, books etc really distort these numbers. Many schools require students to pay for room and board even if they live nearby. Schools are hiding tuition costs in those fees and really need people to pay them.
    - lukeschlather 4y ago
      In more prosperous countries it is simply free. There are a range of charges imposed in the US but it costs.
      - simonsarris 4y ago
        Which more prosperous country? Are you also comparing median salaries after graduation in that country? How do the numbers shake out 10 years after graduation? Anyone who went to community college and makes the median wage ($69,717) in America is doing way better financially than someone who went school for free in France and makes median wage (€22,140). There's really no contest on prosperity for college grads even when you include ridiculous student loans (median for US: $22K).
- 4y ago
baggy_trough 4y ago
They said that, but they were wrong.

tacitusarc 4y ago

Certain people were kids who didn’t know better and were lied to by adults they trusted.

baggy_trough 4y ago
Those adults should certainly be ashamed of themselves.
Ekaros 4y ago
Sue the adults then? Surely if enough people sue some court cases against parents, or guidance counsellors or what ever pass.
- tacitusarc 4y ago
  I agree. They should be sued. Of course it’s incredibly hard to prove and even harder to sue someone you like. And lawsuits where neither side has money are tricky. Probably universities or departments as a whole should be sued.

SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago

Yeah I’m sure 17 year old me should bear the full brunt of my decision to go to college for the majority of my earning years

dymk 4y ago
Yes, you should. Did you choose an advantageous degree?
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  This sentiment is predicated on a scarcity mindset. This is America, I thought we were a land of abundance?
  - mannerheim 4y ago
    if you don't want to give me free money you have a scarcity mindset
  - dymk 4y ago
    You think resources are unlimited? Why would you think that?
    - soulofmischief 4y ago
      What does that have to do with "choosing an advantageous degree"? We are a land of (misappropriated) abundance and can absolutely support those who wish to engage in higher learning and push the boundaries of philosophy and science. I don't want to counter your strawman with another, but not everyone needs to get an engineering degree.
baggy_trough 4y ago
Should somebody else?
- xigoi 4y ago