4 ms·

A bit of an aside, but your comment made me realize how much we don’t know about the process used to create the technologies that underpin our civilization. We

by elteto 3y ago

A bit of an aside, but your comment made me realize how much we don’t know about the process used to create the technologies that underpin our civilization. We (laymen) have no idea about the incredible complexity behind manufacturing a single CPU chip.

hnfong 3y ago
> we don’t know about the process used to create the technologies that underpin our civilization. It's been like that for a while. That's why we need everyone else to function as a society. I've watched a couple blacksmithing videos on youtube but I still don't really know how smelting iron works, and I wouldn't be able to produce a steel if my life depended on it. That's literally 2500+ year old tech.
- hexane360 3y ago
  What's even crazier is it's 2500+ year old tech that we turned into science in a period of about a hundred years (1860s-1960s).
  - mantas 3y ago
    More like labeled it as science.
    - xref 3y ago
      Kinda like all these “doctors” who just swaggered in and labeled brain surgery as science, we’ve been trepanning for thousands of years!
      - mantas 3y ago
        It was science back then, it is science now. Using technologies at the time. 2000 years from now, some people will look at our era as barbarian and unscientific.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
qorrect 3y ago
I think you are really overshooting. Most people don't even know where their water comes from. Most people that drive do not know how a combustion engine works. Even people watching TV are only vaguely aware it's a series of static images chained together to make it look like its moving.
- elteto 3y ago
  Wait, how am I overshooting? Reading your comment it seems like we are both in agreement. Or did I read you wrong?
  - mst 3y ago
    I think they're trying to say that "people don't understand CPUs" is almost over-optimistic given how many much simpler things they don't understand. Would perhaps have been better phrased as "Absolutely true, but it's even worse than that" ass-u-ming I parsed it right.
    - kroltan 3y ago
      People in general have a barely functional understanding of computing devices, let alone their operating systems or hardware components, at an usage level. Their fabrication process is so far removed that I don't think most people would even be able to know where to look for the information, even if they could access and understand all of it.
  - diarrhea 3y ago
    You're in agreement, they are additionally implying that the bar is much lower than you set it though.
  - qorrect 3y ago
    Yes I'm agreeing with you, I think the situation is much worse than that though.
    - elteto 3y ago
anon84873628 3y ago
Oh boy, you should check out the show "Connections" by James Burke
- Ariarule 3y ago
  That also reminded me of _Connections_, which notably made the same point in _the late 1970s_! It isn't like technology's gotten any easier to understand -- in total, "top to bottom" -- since then.
christophilus 3y ago
Reminds me of Jon Blow’s talk about the collapse of civilization: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko&pp=ygUmam9uYXRoYW4gYmxvdyBjb2xsYXBzZSBvZiBjaXZpbGl6YXRpb24%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko&pp=ygUmam9uYXRoYW4...
dstroot 3y ago
Many years ago I sat next to the CTO of Broadcom on a plane. We struck up a conversation and when I learned he worked for a chip designer I asked the question that I assumed was the most difficult part. I asked how the engineers laid out the circuits physically on the chip. He laughed and told me the engineers write software that defines the parameters and functions and the software lays out the chip (I know I am oversimplifying). I was dumbfounded to learn that hardware design was really software development. Today I think Google has an open chip design effort where you write chip specs in Python (from memory).
- cjbprime 3y ago
  This was probably not true many years ago, or at least was a simplification. Even with some automated routing, there are many subtleties like high frequency electronics; not trying to have your radio equipment routing through your power supply, etc.
- acomjean 3y ago
  They even have their own languages for coding the chip logic ( Verilog is one). My partner did chip design and layout. The used a tool call magma (We have some mugs from a conference she went to) but they got bought by synopsis. Very expensive, very specialized software https://www.synopsys.com/# https://www.synopsys.com/#
- rcxdude 3y ago
  It is a mix: digital logic is almost entirely laid out by machine, but analog circuits and the underlying logic cells (as well as certain specialised digital blocks like memories) are a lot less automated. The most expensive part isn't doing that: it's doing the validation and simulation of the design so that it'll have the best chance of working after you've spend 5-6 figures and many months on actually building it (and then there's the cost of testing it in reality and figuring out what isn't actually working and how to fix it: the first batch of chips still extremely rarely works).

by elteto 3y ago

hnfong 3y ago

> we don’t know about the process used to create the technologies that underpin our civilization. It's been like that for a while. That's why we need everyone else to function as a society. I've watched a couple blacksmithing videos on youtube but I still don't really know how smelting iron works, and I wouldn't be able to produce a steel if my life depended on it. That's literally 2500+ year old tech.

hexane360 3y ago
What's even crazier is it's 2500+ year old tech that we turned into science in a period of about a hundred years (1860s-1960s).
- mantas 3y ago
  More like labeled it as science.
  - xref 3y ago
    Kinda like all these “doctors” who just swaggered in and labeled brain surgery as science, we’ve been trepanning for thousands of years!
    - mantas 3y ago
      It was science back then, it is science now. Using technologies at the time. 2000 years from now, some people will look at our era as barbarian and unscientific.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

qorrect 3y ago

I think you are really overshooting. Most people don't even know where their water comes from. Most people that drive do not know how a combustion engine works. Even people watching TV are only vaguely aware it's a series of static images chained together to make it look like its moving.

elteto 3y ago
Wait, how am I overshooting? Reading your comment it seems like we are both in agreement. Or did I read you wrong?
- mst 3y ago
  I think they're trying to say that "people don't understand CPUs" is almost over-optimistic given how many much simpler things they don't understand. Would perhaps have been better phrased as "Absolutely true, but it's even worse than that" ass-u-ming I parsed it right.
  - kroltan 3y ago
    People in general have a barely functional understanding of computing devices, let alone their operating systems or hardware components, at an usage level. Their fabrication process is so far removed that I don't think most people would even be able to know where to look for the information, even if they could access and understand all of it.
- diarrhea 3y ago
  You're in agreement, they are additionally implying that the bar is much lower than you set it though.
- qorrect 3y ago
  Yes I'm agreeing with you, I think the situation is much worse than that though.
  - elteto 3y ago

anon84873628 3y ago

Oh boy, you should check out the show "Connections" by James Burke

Ariarule 3y ago
That also reminded me of _Connections_, which notably made the same point in _the late 1970s_! It isn't like technology's gotten any easier to understand -- in total, "top to bottom" -- since then.

christophilus 3y ago

Reminds me of Jon Blow’s talk about the collapse of civilization: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko&pp=ygUmam9uYXRoYW4gYmxvdyBjb2xsYXBzZSBvZiBjaXZpbGl6YXRpb24%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko&pp=ygUmam9uYXRoYW4...

dstroot 3y ago

Many years ago I sat next to the CTO of Broadcom on a plane. We struck up a conversation and when I learned he worked for a chip designer I asked the question that I assumed was the most difficult part. I asked how the engineers laid out the circuits physically on the chip. He laughed and told me the engineers write software that defines the parameters and functions and the software lays out the chip (I know I am oversimplifying). I was dumbfounded to learn that hardware design was really software development. Today I think Google has an open chip design effort where you write chip specs in Python (from memory).

cjbprime 3y ago
This was probably not true many years ago, or at least was a simplification. Even with some automated routing, there are many subtleties like high frequency electronics; not trying to have your radio equipment routing through your power supply, etc.
acomjean 3y ago
They even have their own languages for coding the chip logic ( Verilog is one). My partner did chip design and layout. The used a tool call magma (We have some mugs from a conference she went to) but they got bought by synopsis. Very expensive, very specialized software https://www.synopsys.com/# https://www.synopsys.com/#
rcxdude 3y ago
It is a mix: digital logic is almost entirely laid out by machine, but analog circuits and the underlying logic cells (as well as certain specialised digital blocks like memories) are a lot less automated. The most expensive part isn't doing that: it's doing the validation and simulation of the design so that it'll have the best chance of working after you've spend 5-6 figures and many months on actually building it (and then there's the cost of testing it in reality and figuring out what isn't actually working and how to fix it: the first batch of chips still extremely rarely works).