4 ms·

If the terms of the loan required they be paid back in full why is it morally acceptable to forgive them partially/fully? And why would it be okay to use tax fu

If the terms of the loan required they be paid back in full why is it morally acceptable to forgive them partially/fully? And why would it be okay to use tax funds to do that? These are genuine questions I’m trying to understand the thinking I see on here and Reddit about this issue

hamandcheese 3y ago
Why is it not?
- willcipriano 3y ago
  What sort of discount will the people who had their loans paid off offer for their services? As a taxpayer who didn't attend college I don't expect to pay full price for someone with a degree that I paid for.
  - hamandcheese 3y ago
    By that logic, you should be asking the Air Force for your own piece of an F35. Let me know how that goes.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      The F35 is to be used to defend me, so yeah I do.
      - ModernMech 3y ago
        And college-educated people funded by student loans engineered it.
        willcipriano 3y ago
        We paid those engineers a salary. Some of that salary is due to the cost of self funding their education. Now that is publicly funded, I would expect a more european salary as opposed to a american one. To do otherwise feels like socializing the losses and privatizing the profits for a entire class of people who are generally better off than average.
        ModernMech 3y ago
        Sounds reasonable.
- ozarker 3y ago
  I don’t know if it’s not but I question why the symptoms are being treated and not the root causes. Why is college so damn expensive, why are people getting useless degrees, etc…
  - hamandcheese 3y ago
    I assume the answer is because it's much easier to hand out free money than it is to actually make structural changes. I don't think it's immoral to give out free money though.
    - ozarker 3y ago
      It’s not free money though.
- simonsarris 3y ago
  When party A loans party B, it is not very moral to demand that party C pay it. This is such an intuitive moral axiom that I would expect it to be pretty non-controversial across cultures and across time. If you believe the loans are predatory, some things one could do instead that might be considered moral: 1. Raid college endowments to pay down student debt 2. Allow bankruptcy for student debt 3. Allow refinancing at generous rates for student debt But mug the public?
noelsusman 3y ago
It's no different than any other form of tax-funded government assistance. The question is if you think "most recent college graduates without wealthy parents" are a population worthy of government assistance.
- econonut 3y ago
  When will the government start paying off my mortgage? The terms of my loan say I need to pay back the loan in full. I signed that contract, but I was young and didn't know any better. Everyone said, take out a loan to buy a house. It's worth it! My parents aren't wealthy so I took out a loan. But, the house isn't what I was promised. I don't think it's worth what I had to pay. I want to keep the house, but I don't want to pay back the loan. When will that debt be forgiven?
  - hamandcheese 3y ago
    > When will the government start paying off my mortgage? Your mortgage interest is tax deductible.
    - pseudo0 3y ago
      Student loan interest is also tax-deductible...
      - hamandcheese 3y ago
        Only when your income is below a certain (rather low) threshold. Source: I have never qualified to deduct my student loan interest. Mortgage interest deduction does not have an income threshold.
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- 3y ago
wolverine876 3y ago
For example, the loans may be extortionate or exploitative; they may be a policy mistake; there are many reasons.
- ozarker 3y ago
  Would educating young people better about finances and loans help the situation?
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    It would be a good idea regardless, but what's your point? Fundamental to extortion and exploitation is that the buyer has no choice. If you are dying of thirst, someone can charge you whatever they want for water. If you have no rights (e.g., you are undocumented) and have no job prospects, someone can pay you whatever they want. You must have water, you must have the job.
    - ozarker 3y ago
      There are many careers that can be attained without college. And there are many careers that can be attained after college that will easily pay for the loans that were taken. The problem seems to be individuals taking loans and either not finishing school or making a bad decision in a degree. I don’t see why that burden should be placed in the taxpayer
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        > There are many careers that can be attained without college. What does that mean? There are many careers that be attained without a home, without literacy, without healthcare. Heck, you could be a hunter-gatherer. And the idea that college is for career is a fallacy, a framing of the issue that suits the reactionary, don't-want-to-pay taxes crowd. Life is so much more than career; our country and communities are so much more, have so many more challenges, than careers; education benefits all of that. (For example, reasoning about public affairs benefits from education.) > many careers that can be attained after college that will easily pay for the loans that were taken Could you provide evidence? I'm not sure that's the case. Also, we need lots of people to do work that doesn't happen to pay especially well. Also, I greatly value freedom and opportunity and believe everyone should have it, not just the wealthy. > I don’t see why that burden should be placed in the taxpayer What is the basis for what we do or don't want to fund collectively? As a taxpayer, I absolutely want to invest in education - for the welfare of the people being educated, for the welfare of our country and communities and the world, for my welfare. You don't have to agree, but on what basis do you make this analysis?
twoodfin 3y ago
The legal theory is that Congress authorized the Secretary of Education to do this under the terms of the HEROES Act of 2003[1]. It requires a war or national emergency, so in this case, C19. There’s a pair of pending Supreme Court cases on the Biden administration loan forgiveness that may validate or reject this theory within the next couple months[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Education_Relief_Opportunities_For_Students_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Education_Relief_Opport... [2] https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/02/bidens-student-loan-forgiveness-plan-gets-cold-reception-from-conservative-justices/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/02/bidens-student-loan-forgi...
lamontcg 3y ago
Because we're entering the end-game of the rent-seeking behavior of higher education. We told generations of young adults that they had to have a college education, just like they needed oxygen to breathe, and guaranteed the availability of loans, which colleges and universities rapidly hiked tuitions in order to capture all of that financed money in a vicious cycle. If that mass-scale predatory behavior hadn't happened, then I'd agree it would boil down to people should just pay back their loans. If we're going to have a society which all but requires a higher education, then tuition needs to be made free. Doing it with loans just ensures that the costs will inflate until they're unbearable for most people.

hamandcheese 3y ago

Why is it not?

willcipriano 3y ago
What sort of discount will the people who had their loans paid off offer for their services? As a taxpayer who didn't attend college I don't expect to pay full price for someone with a degree that I paid for.
- hamandcheese 3y ago
  By that logic, you should be asking the Air Force for your own piece of an F35. Let me know how that goes.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    The F35 is to be used to defend me, so yeah I do.
    - ModernMech 3y ago
      And college-educated people funded by student loans engineered it.
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        We paid those engineers a salary. Some of that salary is due to the cost of self funding their education. Now that is publicly funded, I would expect a more european salary as opposed to a american one. To do otherwise feels like socializing the losses and privatizing the profits for a entire class of people who are generally better off than average.
        ModernMech 3y ago
        Sounds reasonable.
ozarker 3y ago
I don’t know if it’s not but I question why the symptoms are being treated and not the root causes. Why is college so damn expensive, why are people getting useless degrees, etc…
- hamandcheese 3y ago
  I assume the answer is because it's much easier to hand out free money than it is to actually make structural changes. I don't think it's immoral to give out free money though.
  - ozarker 3y ago
    It’s not free money though.
simonsarris 3y ago
When party A loans party B, it is not very moral to demand that party C pay it. This is such an intuitive moral axiom that I would expect it to be pretty non-controversial across cultures and across time. If you believe the loans are predatory, some things one could do instead that might be considered moral: 1. Raid college endowments to pay down student debt 2. Allow bankruptcy for student debt 3. Allow refinancing at generous rates for student debt But mug the public?

noelsusman 3y ago

It's no different than any other form of tax-funded government assistance. The question is if you think "most recent college graduates without wealthy parents" are a population worthy of government assistance.

econonut 3y ago
When will the government start paying off my mortgage? The terms of my loan say I need to pay back the loan in full. I signed that contract, but I was young and didn't know any better. Everyone said, take out a loan to buy a house. It's worth it! My parents aren't wealthy so I took out a loan. But, the house isn't what I was promised. I don't think it's worth what I had to pay. I want to keep the house, but I don't want to pay back the loan. When will that debt be forgiven?
- hamandcheese 3y ago
  > When will the government start paying off my mortgage? Your mortgage interest is tax deductible.
  - pseudo0 3y ago
    Student loan interest is also tax-deductible...
    - hamandcheese 3y ago
      Only when your income is below a certain (rather low) threshold. Source: I have never qualified to deduct my student loan interest. Mortgage interest deduction does not have an income threshold.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
3y ago

wolverine876 3y ago

For example, the loans may be extortionate or exploitative; they may be a policy mistake; there are many reasons.

ozarker 3y ago
Would educating young people better about finances and loans help the situation?
- wolverine876 3y ago
  It would be a good idea regardless, but what's your point? Fundamental to extortion and exploitation is that the buyer has no choice. If you are dying of thirst, someone can charge you whatever they want for water. If you have no rights (e.g., you are undocumented) and have no job prospects, someone can pay you whatever they want. You must have water, you must have the job.
  - ozarker 3y ago
    There are many careers that can be attained without college. And there are many careers that can be attained after college that will easily pay for the loans that were taken. The problem seems to be individuals taking loans and either not finishing school or making a bad decision in a degree. I don’t see why that burden should be placed in the taxpayer
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > There are many careers that can be attained without college. What does that mean? There are many careers that be attained without a home, without literacy, without healthcare. Heck, you could be a hunter-gatherer. And the idea that college is for career is a fallacy, a framing of the issue that suits the reactionary, don't-want-to-pay taxes crowd. Life is so much more than career; our country and communities are so much more, have so many more challenges, than careers; education benefits all of that. (For example, reasoning about public affairs benefits from education.) > many careers that can be attained after college that will easily pay for the loans that were taken Could you provide evidence? I'm not sure that's the case. Also, we need lots of people to do work that doesn't happen to pay especially well. Also, I greatly value freedom and opportunity and believe everyone should have it, not just the wealthy. > I don’t see why that burden should be placed in the taxpayer What is the basis for what we do or don't want to fund collectively? As a taxpayer, I absolutely want to invest in education - for the welfare of the people being educated, for the welfare of our country and communities and the world, for my welfare. You don't have to agree, but on what basis do you make this analysis?

twoodfin 3y ago

The legal theory is that Congress authorized the Secretary of Education to do this under the terms of the HEROES Act of 2003[1]. It requires a war or national emergency, so in this case, C19. There’s a pair of pending Supreme Court cases on the Biden administration loan forgiveness that may validate or reject this theory within the next couple months[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Education_Relief_Opportunities_For_Students_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Education_Relief_Opport... [2] https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/02/bidens-student-loan-forgiveness-plan-gets-cold-reception-from-conservative-justices/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/02/bidens-student-loan-forgi...

lamontcg 3y ago

Because we're entering the end-game of the rent-seeking behavior of higher education. We told generations of young adults that they had to have a college education, just like they needed oxygen to breathe, and guaranteed the availability of loans, which colleges and universities rapidly hiked tuitions in order to capture all of that financed money in a vicious cycle. If that mass-scale predatory behavior hadn't happened, then I'd agree it would boil down to people should just pay back their loans. If we're going to have a society which all but requires a higher education, then tuition needs to be made free. Doing it with loans just ensures that the costs will inflate until they're unbearable for most people.