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just gobsmacked at how the US managed to cobble together a teetering racket of 1.6 trillion dollars of undischargeable student loan debt saddling their youth in

just gobsmacked at how the US managed to cobble together a teetering racket of 1.6 trillion dollars of undischargeable student loan debt saddling their youth into the grave and still somehow manage to have the unmitigated gall to try and fight any effort whatsoever to reform it. Joe Biden was the driving force behind student loans being a debtors prison, and i guarantee in a recession this kind of market debt haunts the man nightly. privatizing and profiteering from higher education doesnt somehow enrich or advance your society or its people. it literally discourages the higher education necessary to maintain your position as a driving force of innovation and market leadership. it decays your position as a superpower faster than nearly anything else you could do.

School-Cotton 3y ago
I’m not aware of any serious attempts to reform the US education (and education financing) system. A one-off debt jubilee isn’t that.
- r00fus 3y ago
  Sanders had “college for all” proposal as part of his 2020 campaign [1]. He came pretty close to winning. [1] https://jayapal.house.gov/2021/04/21/college-for-all/ https://jayapal.house.gov/2021/04/21/college-for-all/
  - dymk 3y ago
    I don’t think it’s a good idea to use blindly throw tax dollars at degrees which ultimately aren’t going to produce any economic value. We should be taking this idea and applying it to trades schools, though.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      You assume they have no value, which is a popular talking point pushed by those who are anti-liberal (and therefore don't want people educated) or care only for low taxes (I'm not saying that's you, just that you repeating it.) But repetition, as we learn in college, has zero relationship to accuracy. First, a goal of any talking point, which the reactionaries construct at a very sophisticated level (a skill of the humanities, which they want to deny to everyone else), is to frame the question. By making it a question of purely economic value, that would seem to attack liberalism and education at their weakest point - kind of like wanting to take down Tom Brady's reputation and so defining quarterbacks by their running ability. Again, understanding that is a product of humanities education. Life, freedom, the welfare of the nation, depend on far more than economic output. That's just one element of many. And also, we have very strong evidence that college degrees do have great economic value: The people whose economic success depends on it will pay people with college degrees far more. Where is your evidence otherwise? My personal experience, and current experience with someone currently in college, is the education is invaluable. It's transformative. I can't imagine who I would be without what the knowledge and especially the thinking that I learned in college.
      - orangecat 3y ago
        And also, we have very strong evidence that college degrees do have great economic value Yes. Which is why it's absurd for for people who obtained this valuable asset to demand handouts from people who didn't.
        danaris 3y ago
        You are conflating "economic value to the educated" with "value to the economy". In aggregate, having an educated populace is hugely beneficial to society as a whole, which includes economic benefits. This does not translate to commensurate economic benefits to all the individuals who get that education. Our society benefits from these people having an education; therefore, our society should pay for it.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        It's not just transactional - i.e., 'we benefit so we pay'; don't let the reductionists frame the debate. We also should do it because people deserve freedom and opportunity. It's the Land of Opportunity, not the land of rapacious capitalism; it's the Land of Hope and Dreams, not of self-dealing.
  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    I wouldn’t consider that a serious attempt, given that the president doesn’t have the ability to enact that by himself.
    - r00fus 3y ago
      Presidents always propose budgets and lead the party. As a voter, part of your vote is not just for the President and his/her team but their agenda.
      - School-Cotton 3y ago
        That’s the theory, but it doesn’t really work in reality. The chance of a major reform like that ever passing is very close to zero. The last big legislative reform of anything in the US was the Affordable Care Act, which, despite being a relatively modest reform by the standards of any country with a functional political system, was a once-in-a-generation effort requiring huge amounts of political capital and luck. Any serious reform to higher education would dwarf that. When I said I wasn’t aware of any serious proposals for education reform, I didn’t mean because politicians (like Sanders) don’t want them. I meant because such a reform is impossible.
        r00fus 3y ago
        You know what? I don’t care if it’s impossible. I want my politicians to get caught trying to do the right thing.
        lamontcg 3y ago
        You have a self-fulfilling prophecy which you've asserted. From my perspective the fact that so many people think exactly like you do is why those proposals don't have any chance of being treated seriously. If you all treated them seriously, they would immediately become serious and therefore possible. Cynical realism ensures that we can never solve any problems.
        School-Cotton 3y ago
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Clinton, Biden, Sanders, and many others had platforms of mass free college education of one kind or another. At least some localities have free community college. Biden, the only one elected nationally, proposed it to Congress but it was killed off by the GOP. Someone I was taking to at the time laughed about it and said to me, 'no way was I going to pay for the blacks to go to college!' (they were elderly and white). A shocking, revelatory moment for me. Sample size of 1 in that case, but that's widely theorized to be the basis of conservative rejection of providing any such benefits to Americans.
  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    A platform is not a realistic attempt. In particular, something that can easily be “killed off by the GOP” is not a realistic attempt, given that the GOP exists.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Yes, I agree to a great degree: It depends on Biden's priorities, to fight for it or to trade it away. But the idea that nobody is working on it is a great exaggeration.
theGnuMe 3y ago
It was Bush Jr.

School-Cotton 3y ago

I’m not aware of any serious attempts to reform the US education (and education financing) system. A one-off debt jubilee isn’t that.

r00fus 3y ago
Sanders had “college for all” proposal as part of his 2020 campaign [1]. He came pretty close to winning. [1] https://jayapal.house.gov/2021/04/21/college-for-all/ https://jayapal.house.gov/2021/04/21/college-for-all/
- dymk 3y ago
  I don’t think it’s a good idea to use blindly throw tax dollars at degrees which ultimately aren’t going to produce any economic value. We should be taking this idea and applying it to trades schools, though.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    You assume they have no value, which is a popular talking point pushed by those who are anti-liberal (and therefore don't want people educated) or care only for low taxes (I'm not saying that's you, just that you repeating it.) But repetition, as we learn in college, has zero relationship to accuracy. First, a goal of any talking point, which the reactionaries construct at a very sophisticated level (a skill of the humanities, which they want to deny to everyone else), is to frame the question. By making it a question of purely economic value, that would seem to attack liberalism and education at their weakest point - kind of like wanting to take down Tom Brady's reputation and so defining quarterbacks by their running ability. Again, understanding that is a product of humanities education. Life, freedom, the welfare of the nation, depend on far more than economic output. That's just one element of many. And also, we have very strong evidence that college degrees do have great economic value: The people whose economic success depends on it will pay people with college degrees far more. Where is your evidence otherwise? My personal experience, and current experience with someone currently in college, is the education is invaluable. It's transformative. I can't imagine who I would be without what the knowledge and especially the thinking that I learned in college.
    - orangecat 3y ago
      And also, we have very strong evidence that college degrees do have great economic value Yes. Which is why it's absurd for for people who obtained this valuable asset to demand handouts from people who didn't.
      - danaris 3y ago
        You are conflating "economic value to the educated" with "value to the economy". In aggregate, having an educated populace is hugely beneficial to society as a whole, which includes economic benefits. This does not translate to commensurate economic benefits to all the individuals who get that education. Our society benefits from these people having an education; therefore, our society should pay for it.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        It's not just transactional - i.e., 'we benefit so we pay'; don't let the reductionists frame the debate. We also should do it because people deserve freedom and opportunity. It's the Land of Opportunity, not the land of rapacious capitalism; it's the Land of Hope and Dreams, not of self-dealing.
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  I wouldn’t consider that a serious attempt, given that the president doesn’t have the ability to enact that by himself.
  - r00fus 3y ago
    Presidents always propose budgets and lead the party. As a voter, part of your vote is not just for the President and his/her team but their agenda.
    - School-Cotton 3y ago
      That’s the theory, but it doesn’t really work in reality. The chance of a major reform like that ever passing is very close to zero. The last big legislative reform of anything in the US was the Affordable Care Act, which, despite being a relatively modest reform by the standards of any country with a functional political system, was a once-in-a-generation effort requiring huge amounts of political capital and luck. Any serious reform to higher education would dwarf that. When I said I wasn’t aware of any serious proposals for education reform, I didn’t mean because politicians (like Sanders) don’t want them. I meant because such a reform is impossible.
      - r00fus 3y ago
        You know what? I don’t care if it’s impossible. I want my politicians to get caught trying to do the right thing.
      - lamontcg 3y ago
        You have a self-fulfilling prophecy which you've asserted. From my perspective the fact that so many people think exactly like you do is why those proposals don't have any chance of being treated seriously. If you all treated them seriously, they would immediately become serious and therefore possible. Cynical realism ensures that we can never solve any problems.
        School-Cotton 3y ago
wolverine876 3y ago
Clinton, Biden, Sanders, and many others had platforms of mass free college education of one kind or another. At least some localities have free community college. Biden, the only one elected nationally, proposed it to Congress but it was killed off by the GOP. Someone I was taking to at the time laughed about it and said to me, 'no way was I going to pay for the blacks to go to college!' (they were elderly and white). A shocking, revelatory moment for me. Sample size of 1 in that case, but that's widely theorized to be the basis of conservative rejection of providing any such benefits to Americans.
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  A platform is not a realistic attempt. In particular, something that can easily be “killed off by the GOP” is not a realistic attempt, given that the GOP exists.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Yes, I agree to a great degree: It depends on Biden's priorities, to fight for it or to trade it away. But the idea that nobody is working on it is a great exaggeration.

theGnuMe 3y ago

It was Bush Jr.