4 ms·
Yeah, pretty much this. Only a subset of the actual activity that falls under the umbrella of "software engineering" could be called engineering in the traditio
by voidhorse 4y ago
Yeah, pretty much this. Only a subset of the actual activity that falls under the umbrella of "software engineering" could be called engineering in the traditional sense.
The engineers working on aviation software and other low-level, real-time, performance critical systems probably need to use quite a bit of maths and are closest to doing what we traditionally consider engineering.
All those teams working on web apps and advertising...yeah not really. This isn't to say what they do isn't complicated or difficult, but it's not really engineering in the classical sense insofar as it doesn't (typically) require the use of continuous mathematics and deep systems theory. If you're primarily writing systems design docs and performing calculations, you're probably doing some kind of engineering. If you're mostly writing code to spec you're just programming. It's sort of akin to a carpenter calling themselves an engineer.
But hey, this is all symptomatic of a general trend here in the states of the trivialization and devaluing of expertise; people think it's fair to identify as whatever their heart desires regardless of qualification, knowledge, or experience. A world in which people regularly accept advice from total randos on social media is not one that has any strong sense of value around knowledge or critical capacity.
- VirusNewbie 4y agoLol yes, the people writing spaghetti code at boeing are real engineers and the people writing complex distributed systems at Google aren’t.
- m3kw9 4y agoin aviation, engineering is basically trying to get 5-6 sigma safety
- enraged_camel 4y agoI refer to myself as a software developer, but also intensely dislike the gatekeeping around the term “engineer”.
- turtleyacht 4y agoIt's only after these works that I've found "engineering" is worth a little gatekeeping: * The New Plague * Have Fun at Work * Friends in High Places * Design for Prevention In short, some cynicism is warranted, but not complete and utter disillusionment.
- silisili 4y agoI call myself a programmer. Nothing more, nothing less. While I don't necessarily go out of my way to gatekeep, I find 'engineer' pretty cringy, and 'architect' makes my eyes roll out of my head. What's next, Software Physician?
- hyperliner 4y ago[dead]
- zamnos 4y agoThey do give PhDs in Computers Science. And they require a similar amount of time (10-years-ish) to get as an MD, plus the salaries are similarly generous.
- throwaway675309 4y agoI disagree, maybe if the software industry self regulated like more traditional forms of engineering such as mechanical and electrical, we could guarantee some minimal level of competency in the field and wouldn't have to resort to weeklong interview processes and hours and hours of leetcode and whiteboarding. With all due respect, if your "engineering title" is preceded by the word salesforce or prompt, you're not an engineer.
- jcfrei 4y agoThanks for reminding us that there are only a few real engineering professions. Reminds me of the Hemingway quote that there only three real sports: Motorracing, mountaineering and bull fighting - the rest are just games. No seriously that kind of gate keeping is just ridiculous.
- TapWaterBandit 4y agoOut of curiosity, what is your definition of "engineering" and "engineer"? Genuine question, I am not an engineer nor in any sort of role that could plausibly be considered engineering.
- idontreadtheop 4y agoIt’s also a totally borked analogy. In software the spec is usually the carpentry equivalent of “build a house. Must have door”. Building a house takes engineering (e.g. structural). It also takes carpenters and plumbers and so on. What’s fun about software is you get to do all of it on one project.
- zamnos 4y agoIs it? Are you legally culpable in the case that your software kills or maims somebody? Because a civil engineer is, if the bridge they built falls down. Is there a license you need to practice writing software, that can be revoked and prevent you from writing more software if you're caught writing software with gross negligence, leading to it getting hacked? Because other engineering disciplines are held to those kinds of standards. Words mean things, and if we want to consider "software engineer" as anything more than title inflation, it should mean more than just a programmer who's full of themselves. If I shit out a webapp that's crashes if you look at it funny, that shouldn't be considered software engineering because it's a pile of shit that barely works. If I make a webapp that actually gives useful error messages to users and is robust in the face of failure and is maintainable and someone else would want to touch my code, then we're starting to get somewhere.
- voidhorse 4y agoA society that elects to apply an existing term to cases in which it doesn't quite fit indicates the society is linguistically bankrupt. I'd argue that, instead of calling every profession "engineering" we ought to come up with more precise distinctions and designations. Let's be honest, the main reason so many people glom on to the term "engineer" is because (as others have mentioned) the rigorous processes around licensing for other engineering disciplines keeps supply low, which attaches an inherent market value to the term. People then adopt the term without justification in the hope if nets them a pay raise. We ought to accept that it's OK not to be an engineer. Other professions are also valuable. It's also important to "gatekeep" meanings of words to a certain extent lest we think it wise to accept a language in which any word can mean anything.