5 ms·

The fate of the Challenger engineers is depressing because they were essentially kicked out of their profession for knowing the right and moral answer. Thankful

The fate of the Challenger engineers is depressing because they were essentially kicked out of their profession for knowing the right and moral answer. Thankfully, very few of us will be faced with these honestly life-or-death technical decisions. I think there are parallels to right-or-wrong issues that we face in our own industry on a regular basis, for example: http://johnnye.net/articles/ios-apps-want-your-contacts,-not-just-path.html http://johnnye.net/articles/ios-apps-want-your-contacts,-not... Are phrases like "standard industry practice" and "covered by the click-through license" today's weasel words that rationalize us implementing immoral management demands?

rdtsc 15y ago
> I think there are parallels to right-or-wrong issues that we face in our own industry on a regular basis, for example: If our software deals with privacy and personal information then it can even become life or death in some countries. A dissident in a brutal authoritarian regime could lose his life if the software has a bug in it, for example. The other area were moral choices take place is in licensing and patents. Can be on both large scales (like we see with big companies use busybox for their platform) or smaller scales (copying code from one project to another without even giving credit).
- bwarp 15y ago
  Fine historical example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust Please don't downvote me - I'm not invoking Godwins Law here ;-)
  - rdtsc 15y ago
    Yeah that is a good point. One can argue that technology is a tool and it can be used for evil. But with this stuff: "without IBM's machinery, continuing UPKEEP and SERVICE, as well as the supply of punch cards, whether located ON-SITE or off-site, Hitler's camps could have never managed the numbers they did" [emphasis mine] The idea is basically: So there were not pocket calculators that they bought and then deployed in concentration camps and IBM can claim complete ignorance over the use. These machines need constant & professional service. Having them onsite meant that IBM sent technicians there probably. One had to wonder what those technician's response do the 24/7 billowing crematorium and emaciated bodies were. However, on the other side (and I have not read the book, just looked at the topic many years ago superficially) I am not aware of any IBM engineers' stories about an actual site visit... So I don't know what to think and how guilty IBM really is...
    - bwarp 15y ago
      I doubt IBM would have given away any engineering stories about this unless the Germans won.
    - Symmetry 15y ago
      I don't know, I think that IBM per se was really in a position to know how the census machines they had given to Germany were actually being used. Remember that this was before the days of satellite communication, and as part of their war strategy the British cut Germany's telegraph cables (just like they had in WWI) and intercepted packets of mail between the US and Germany whenever they could, and generally did a pretty good job of it[1]. I'm happy to believe that people who were nominally IBM employees were servicing the machines, but if IBM headquarters wasn't being told what was happening, and if the employees faced getting shot if they didn't do what they were told, I'm not sure how much you can say that IBM knew in any meaningful sense. [1] This was a point of contention between the UK and US before the fall of France.
bwarp 15y ago
> Thankfully, very few of us will be faced with these honestly life-or-death technical decisions. You'd be surprised. Check out the computer risks digest - always a sign of how pear shaped stuff can go: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks
- dmethvin 15y ago
  Yep, I've followed it for many years: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/15.70.html#subj3.1 http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/15.70.html#subj3.1 http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.39.html#subj9.1 http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.39.html#subj9.1
  - bwarp 15y ago
    Excellent. I love the comment of yours "I'm not cashing this one either; now I want to find out how badly they want to give me this money."
beachgeek 15y ago
I've written about my situation at my soon-to-be previous company earlier. My situation obviously wasn't as critical as being an engineer for the Challenger. But immature managers did whatever they wanted: no lives were lost but people were laid off, money was wasted, opportunities were squandered etc. I've been spending the last few weeks wondering how as engineers we should deal with this. Its frustrating that after so many years (decades!) managers still don't know how to deal with engineers.

rdtsc 15y ago

> I think there are parallels to right-or-wrong issues that we face in our own industry on a regular basis, for example: If our software deals with privacy and personal information then it can even become life or death in some countries. A dissident in a brutal authoritarian regime could lose his life if the software has a bug in it, for example. The other area were moral choices take place is in licensing and patents. Can be on both large scales (like we see with big companies use busybox for their platform) or smaller scales (copying code from one project to another without even giving credit).

bwarp 15y ago
Fine historical example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust Please don't downvote me - I'm not invoking Godwins Law here ;-)
- rdtsc 15y ago
  Yeah that is a good point. One can argue that technology is a tool and it can be used for evil. But with this stuff: "without IBM's machinery, continuing UPKEEP and SERVICE, as well as the supply of punch cards, whether located ON-SITE or off-site, Hitler's camps could have never managed the numbers they did" [emphasis mine] The idea is basically: So there were not pocket calculators that they bought and then deployed in concentration camps and IBM can claim complete ignorance over the use. These machines need constant & professional service. Having them onsite meant that IBM sent technicians there probably. One had to wonder what those technician's response do the 24/7 billowing crematorium and emaciated bodies were. However, on the other side (and I have not read the book, just looked at the topic many years ago superficially) I am not aware of any IBM engineers' stories about an actual site visit... So I don't know what to think and how guilty IBM really is...
  - bwarp 15y ago
    I doubt IBM would have given away any engineering stories about this unless the Germans won.
  - Symmetry 15y ago
    I don't know, I think that IBM per se was really in a position to know how the census machines they had given to Germany were actually being used. Remember that this was before the days of satellite communication, and as part of their war strategy the British cut Germany's telegraph cables (just like they had in WWI) and intercepted packets of mail between the US and Germany whenever they could, and generally did a pretty good job of it[1]. I'm happy to believe that people who were nominally IBM employees were servicing the machines, but if IBM headquarters wasn't being told what was happening, and if the employees faced getting shot if they didn't do what they were told, I'm not sure how much you can say that IBM knew in any meaningful sense. [1] This was a point of contention between the UK and US before the fall of France.

bwarp 15y ago

> Thankfully, very few of us will be faced with these honestly life-or-death technical decisions. You'd be surprised. Check out the computer risks digest - always a sign of how pear shaped stuff can go: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks

dmethvin 15y ago
Yep, I've followed it for many years: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/15.70.html#subj3.1 http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/15.70.html#subj3.1 http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.39.html#subj9.1 http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/18.39.html#subj9.1
- bwarp 15y ago
  Excellent. I love the comment of yours "I'm not cashing this one either; now I want to find out how badly they want to give me this money."

beachgeek 15y ago

I've written about my situation at my soon-to-be previous company earlier. My situation obviously wasn't as critical as being an engineer for the Challenger. But immature managers did whatever they wanted: no lives were lost but people were laid off, money was wasted, opportunities were squandered etc. I've been spending the last few weeks wondering how as engineers we should deal with this. Its frustrating that after so many years (decades!) managers still don't know how to deal with engineers.