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I highly recommend browsing through the videos in Asianometrys channel if you want easily digestible summaries on this topic: https://youtube.com/@Asianometry h

I highly recommend browsing through the videos in Asianometrys channel if you want easily digestible summaries on this topic: https://youtube.com/@Asianometry https://youtube.com/@Asianometry TSMC analysis playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKtxx9TnH76SRC7ZbOu2Nsg5mC72fy-GZ https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKtxx9TnH76SRC7ZbOu2Nsg5m...

chasil 4y ago
A recent interview with Shang-Yi Chiang, former Vice President of R&D at TSMC (also held positions at TI, HP, and SMIC) had insightful commentary on the speed of bringing up a new node. "We all take two years to develop one generation, how come you guys can do it in one or one-and-a-half year?" And they asked if some of your customer transfer technology to you or what not? And I told him, "No," I told him that, "That's not true." I think he probably implied we steal technology from customer, the way he talk. And I say, "I'll tell you why." I said that, "When we develop one node, basically you have some learning cycles. First, you do some simulation. And you have some idea, then you run wafers to prove that. So, you run a group of wafers according to simulation and you have some splits. The wafer runs through the fab, they come out and you measure them, you analyze them, and you try to improve and you run this again. This again, you run. So, this is learning cycle." At that time, "It takes about six learning cycle, roughly, to complete one generation." Of course, you had some short loops and not just one. I said that, "My R&D wafer in the fab run much faster than yours, because my R&D engineer works three shifts and you only work one shift. So, your R&D wafer move eight hours a day, my work/move 24-hours a day. So, my wafers go three times faster, even if you are twice smarter than me, I still beat you up." <laughter> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102792671 https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/10279267...
- ramraj07 4y ago
  Is he implying the same engineer works 3 shifts or that they have 3 shifts of engineers 24/7?
  - tiernano 4y ago
    3 separate shifts iirc. But don't Intel run 24/7 too? Or is that just for prod? I remember some plant (not Intel, a memory plant) had an issue and lost power for a few hours and lost a shite load of memory wafers and took a couple days to come back into prod.
    - marricks 4y ago
      Intel certainly do run machines 24/7 but perhaps those R&D engineers/PhD's don't, so maybe only the techie's running the machines have full coverage...?
      - jpgvm 4y ago
        Essentially yeah. R&D at Intel/AMD/NVidia is 9-5 work. TSMC and SMIC are different beasts entirely. They push way harder on the gas and never let up. A lot of ex-TSMC are at SMIC now. They aren't doing cutting edge nodes for now but expect crazy things out of SMIC in 5-10 years.
        yladiz 4y ago
        It’ll be hard for SMIC to do too many crazy things without being able to get ASML machines, though.
        jpgvm 4y ago
        As pure designers yeah but Chinese government is about to do to chips what they did to solar and batteries so I wouldn't count them out yet. Might be 5-10 years before they catch up but they are by no means out of the fight.
        tooltalk 4y ago
        what did China do in battery? I thought China is still behind Japan and South Korea.
- nunuvit 4y ago
  Manufacturing equipment isn't plug-and-play like an office laser printer. It's more like a paint brush and you're responsible for the results. It seems they spend more time learning how to get the most out of their tools.
- deepnotderp 4y ago
  This is a made up explanation because: 1) All RnD fabs move wafers 24/7 2) Intel has consistently been the leader in process technology for 20+ years. Why did this “3x shift advantage” deliver gains only in the past 5 years?
  - tehbeard 4y ago
    Maybe a leader in 14nm developments...
  - chasil 4y ago
    What would cause the VP of R&D to make such a false claim? Also see his discussion of copper interconnects, which they delivered first, even before IBM. He also concedes that Intel has led in "transistor performance," and they have never been equaled. The interview also goes into the later scandal of his employment at SMIC, so he is a controversial figure, without doubt.
    - kortilla 4y ago
      >What would cause the VP of R&D to make such a false claim? Winning in a complex business environment is very frequently both intentionally and unintentionally misattributed by the winner.
      - chasil 4y ago
        Agreed, history is written by those who prevail.
  - nunuvit 4y ago
    > my R&D engineer works three shifts and you only work one shift > All RnD fabs move wafers 24/7 Are you talking about the same thing? It's one thing to let an experiment run overnight with three technician shifts. It's another thing to have three research shifts. It could also be a metaphor for doing more research than the competition on how to best use the same equipment, so I wouldn't get too hung up on it.
- marricks 4y ago
  Even if they stole technology they'd need a time machine to be where they're at now since they're ahead of others. I wouldn't put it past Intel to imply they stole from their upcoming node but, if so, it's not like Intel has that out yet...

chasil 4y ago

A recent interview with Shang-Yi Chiang, former Vice President of R&D at TSMC (also held positions at TI, HP, and SMIC) had insightful commentary on the speed of bringing up a new node. "We all take two years to develop one generation, how come you guys can do it in one or one-and-a-half year?" And they asked if some of your customer transfer technology to you or what not? And I told him, "No," I told him that, "That's not true." I think he probably implied we steal technology from customer, the way he talk. And I say, "I'll tell you why." I said that, "When we develop one node, basically you have some learning cycles. First, you do some simulation. And you have some idea, then you run wafers to prove that. So, you run a group of wafers according to simulation and you have some splits. The wafer runs through the fab, they come out and you measure them, you analyze them, and you try to improve and you run this again. This again, you run. So, this is learning cycle." At that time, "It takes about six learning cycle, roughly, to complete one generation." Of course, you had some short loops and not just one. I said that, "My R&D wafer in the fab run much faster than yours, because my R&D engineer works three shifts and you only work one shift. So, your R&D wafer move eight hours a day, my work/move 24-hours a day. So, my wafers go three times faster, even if you are twice smarter than me, I still beat you up." <laughter> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102792671 https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/10279267...

ramraj07 4y ago
Is he implying the same engineer works 3 shifts or that they have 3 shifts of engineers 24/7?
- tiernano 4y ago
  3 separate shifts iirc. But don't Intel run 24/7 too? Or is that just for prod? I remember some plant (not Intel, a memory plant) had an issue and lost power for a few hours and lost a shite load of memory wafers and took a couple days to come back into prod.
  - marricks 4y ago
    Intel certainly do run machines 24/7 but perhaps those R&D engineers/PhD's don't, so maybe only the techie's running the machines have full coverage...?
    - jpgvm 4y ago
      Essentially yeah. R&D at Intel/AMD/NVidia is 9-5 work. TSMC and SMIC are different beasts entirely. They push way harder on the gas and never let up. A lot of ex-TSMC are at SMIC now. They aren't doing cutting edge nodes for now but expect crazy things out of SMIC in 5-10 years.
      - yladiz 4y ago
        It’ll be hard for SMIC to do too many crazy things without being able to get ASML machines, though.
        jpgvm 4y ago
        As pure designers yeah but Chinese government is about to do to chips what they did to solar and batteries so I wouldn't count them out yet. Might be 5-10 years before they catch up but they are by no means out of the fight.
        tooltalk 4y ago
        what did China do in battery? I thought China is still behind Japan and South Korea.
nunuvit 4y ago
Manufacturing equipment isn't plug-and-play like an office laser printer. It's more like a paint brush and you're responsible for the results. It seems they spend more time learning how to get the most out of their tools.
deepnotderp 4y ago
This is a made up explanation because: 1) All RnD fabs move wafers 24/7 2) Intel has consistently been the leader in process technology for 20+ years. Why did this “3x shift advantage” deliver gains only in the past 5 years?
- tehbeard 4y ago
  Maybe a leader in 14nm developments...
- chasil 4y ago
  What would cause the VP of R&D to make such a false claim? Also see his discussion of copper interconnects, which they delivered first, even before IBM. He also concedes that Intel has led in "transistor performance," and they have never been equaled. The interview also goes into the later scandal of his employment at SMIC, so he is a controversial figure, without doubt.
  - kortilla 4y ago
    >What would cause the VP of R&D to make such a false claim? Winning in a complex business environment is very frequently both intentionally and unintentionally misattributed by the winner.
    - chasil 4y ago
      Agreed, history is written by those who prevail.
- nunuvit 4y ago
  > my R&D engineer works three shifts and you only work one shift > All RnD fabs move wafers 24/7 Are you talking about the same thing? It's one thing to let an experiment run overnight with three technician shifts. It's another thing to have three research shifts. It could also be a metaphor for doing more research than the competition on how to best use the same equipment, so I wouldn't get too hung up on it.
marricks 4y ago
Even if they stole technology they'd need a time machine to be where they're at now since they're ahead of others. I wouldn't put it past Intel to imply they stole from their upcoming node but, if so, it's not like Intel has that out yet...