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You have a faulty premise. Most meat and dairy is healthy, if consumed in reasonable quantities. The exception is chargrilled red meat, which is correlated with

You have a faulty premise. Most meat and dairy is healthy, if consumed in reasonable quantities. The exception is chargrilled red meat, which is correlated with colon cancer. There is evidence that vegan diets are dangerous for children. This study (https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?login=false https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?log...), for example, found that vegan children were shorter and had lower bone density. Typical vegan diets lack the following essential nutrients either in part, or entirely: * A * B6 * B12 * D * F * K2 * CLA * Carnitine * Carnosine * Cholesterol * CoQ10 * Creatine * Heme-iron * Saturated fat * Taurine Of course a wise and studious vegan will carefully supplement all of these nutrients in the right balance on the right day. Most will not, and the risk compounds for children. An omnivorous diet is easy to get right, provided one doesn't over-eat.

tap-snap-or-nap 4y ago
> There is evidence that vegan diets are dangerous for children That is not "evidence that vegan diets are dangerous for children".
- Gareth321 4y ago
  Lower stature and bone density is evidence of dangerous malnutrition. Those with lower bone density in particular are at far higher risk of osteoporosis. I'm not sure how you could claim that isn't evidence of potential danger.
  - deif 4y ago
    Not sure what your evidence is. Here's my list of studies of vegetarian and vegan children that disprove your claims: * https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/4/832/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/4/832/htm * https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00394-021-02753-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00394-021-02753-3 * https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/5/1707/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/5/1707/htm * https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918 https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918 * https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/growth-of-vegetarian-children.-farm-study-oconnel-1989.pdf https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/grow... * https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/growth-of-british-vegan-children-sanders-1988.pdf https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/grow... * https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-277X.1992.tb00129.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-277X.... * https://www.minervamedica.it/en/journals/minerva-pediatrics/article.php?cod=R15Y9999N00A21041604 https://www.minervamedica.it/en/journals/minerva-pediatrics/... * https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202013492 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202013492 All concluded that vegan diets were healthy for children as long as the parents knew the common deficiencies (B12) and fed their children enough calories. The study you cited is on my list because it seems you didn't read the results where it stated that most children were not eating fortified or supplemented food like Vitamin D, which could easily explain why they have a lower bone density.
    - Gareth321 4y ago
      > Not sure what your evidence is. I provided a study in my very first comment. Did you read it? I'll provide it again for you here: (https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?log https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?log...) The study found vegan children to be at risk of lower stature and bone density. Thank you for the studies, I have reviewed them. In turn: 1. Please review Figure 2. Children on vegan and vegetarian diets presented with higher rates of "stunted or severely stunted," as per the WHO criteria used. This is discussed and confirmed later in the study. The study did not measure bone density at all. 2. This is the same study cited as above. 3. This study explored neither height nor bone density. The blood levels of studied macro-nutrients were in the healthy range, and that's good. 4. In a fascinating twist of fate, you cited the study I cited above, which finds that vegan children are at risk of lower stature and bone density. I'm not sure you read these studies if you think this study confirms your beliefs. 5. This study found that vegetarian children were both shorter, and weighed less. They did not measure bone density. 6. This study found, like the rest, that vegan children were shorter and weighed less. They did not measure bone density. 7. This study, once again, found children to be lighter and shorter. They did not measure bone density. 8. This study, once again, found children to be lighter and lower in "growth percentile." The study did not measure bone density. 9. It's hard to parse this study. The omnivorous children were taller than the vegetarians, but shorter than the vegans. However the vegan cohort was only six in total. Further, the vegetarian children were heavier than the omnivores. These results are the opposite of all of the studies you cited. It is an interesting data point, but it doesn't appear to lend credence to either of our arguments. It's clear that some delta occurs as a result of vegan, vegetarian, and omnivorous diets, and given the wealth of evidence you've submitted, it's clear that vegetarian and especially vegan diets usually result in poorer growth. The study did not measure bone density. I'm not sure you read these studies very thoroughly. I suppose I should thank you for providing so much corroborative evidence that vegan diets are dangerous for children.
      - deif 4y ago
        Very interesting reply. The summaries of all these studies can effectively be summarised as: if you are raising children on a vegan diet, ensure you supplement and have adequate calory intake. Taking datapoints from figures and graphs without understanding the underlying causes and effects is how we spread misinformation. It's great that studies are measuring this so that we understand better how humans can develop successfully. An example of this is in study 6 where you stated that vegan children were shorter and weighed less. Whilst true the study also stated "The energy intake of the vegan children was consistently lower than the recommended daily amounts". It then concluded that with a sensibly planned diet vegan children should have no intellectual or physical problems in their development. So whilst I agree that all the studies did find differences, I disagree that they are somehow proving against my points that a vegan diet in children can be healthy if correctly planned. Due to how the animal agriculture industry creates meat (such as supplementing and fortifying the meat) it is extremely easy to get away with not planning meals with an omnivorous diet.
  - legacynl 4y ago
    You have it backwards. Malnutrition can lead to impaired growth and lower bone density. But that doesn't automatically mean that lower bone density and lower stature is evidence of malnutrition. For all we know the measured difference between test and control was much smaller than the standard deviation. Also the list you posted contains substances that our body produces ourselves so we don't need to get these from food (e.g. Creatine)
    - Gareth321 4y ago
      You are conflating study confounds with malnutrition. Lower stature and bone density is in fact clinical evidence of malnutrition. It is possible that the study cohort simultaneously suffered some other malady like radiation poisoning, but it is unlikely they all suffered maladies resulting in the same symptoms. I think the study design is sufficient to rule that out. It is certainly as rigorous as any other peer-reviewed nutritional study.
shafyy 4y ago
The only things lacking in a plant-based diet that is essential are vitamin B12 and D. B12 is also lacking in animal-based diets nowadays, but is supplemented in animal feed. D is also lacking in animal-based diet, so this is not specific to plant-based diets. Vitamins A, B6, F can be found in many plant-based foods. The rest of the stuff you listed are not essential for human health.
- Gareth321 4y ago
  > B12 is also lacking in animal-based diets nowadays, but is supplemented in animal feed. D is also lacking in animal-based diet, so this is not specific to plant-based diets. B12 is naturally present in fish, meat, poultry, eggs, and dairy products. D is naturally present in oily fish, including salmon, mackerel, and sardines; as well as egg yolks, red meat, and liver. > Vitamins A, B6, F can be found in many plant-based foods. The rest of the stuff you listed are not essential for human health. Only fortified vegan foods contain sufficient quantities to satisfy a healthy diet, and even then, fortification may not be enough; especially for a growing child. Of course it requires one to be diligent in purchasing fortified options. As for the claim that CLA, carnitine, carnosine, cholesterol, creatine, heme-iron, and taurine are not essential, I refer you to these studies and sources: * CLA is an essential fatty acid for humans (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4429457/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4429457/). * Carnitine is considered a conditionally essential amino acid (https://ods.od.nih.gov/News/Carnitine_Conference_Summary.aspx https://ods.od.nih.gov/News/Carnitine_Conference_Summary.asp...). In many cases the body does not synthesise sufficient quantities. * Carnosine can be synthesised with beta-alanine and L-histidine (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8300828/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8300828/), but vegetarians possess 50% lower beta-alanine (Harris, 2007. Harris RC, Jones G, Hill CA, et al. The Carnosine Content of V Lateralis in Vegetarians and Omnivores The FASEB Journal. 2007;21:769.20), and vegetarians subsequently typically possess significantly lower levels of muscle carnosine (Everaert, 2011. Everaert I, Mooyaart A, Baguet A, Zutinic A, Baelde H, Achten E, Taes Y, De Heer E, Derave W. Vegetarianism, female gender and increasing age, but not CNDP1 genotype, are associated with reduced muscle carnosine levels in humans. Amino Acids. 2011 Apr;40(4):1221-9). As per the study by Jukic et al. (2021), carnisine is an extremely important dipeptide for humans. * Cholesterol is essential (https://www.cdc.gov/cholesterol/myths_facts.htm#:~:text=Myth%3A%20All%20cholesterol%20is%20bad,blood%20on%20proteins%20called%20lipoproteins https://www.cdc.gov/cholesterol/myths_facts.htm#:~:text=Myth....). * Heme is essential (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967179/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967179/). * Taurine is essential (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3501277/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3501277/). It's fair to argue that the data on K2, CoQ10, saturated fat isn't as conclusive. While the data is convincing, I can't prove they are essential. They certainly haven't been ruled out as being important to a healthy, balanced diet.
Eduard 4y ago
You have a faulty conclusion, I didn't say most meat and diary is unhealthy. But there is plenty of evidence that a nutrition significantly more vegan than today's western standard is better: healthier, cheaper, and ecologically superior.
- stefantalpalaru 4y ago
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tap-snap-or-nap 4y ago

> There is evidence that vegan diets are dangerous for children That is not "evidence that vegan diets are dangerous for children".

Gareth321 4y ago
Lower stature and bone density is evidence of dangerous malnutrition. Those with lower bone density in particular are at far higher risk of osteoporosis. I'm not sure how you could claim that isn't evidence of potential danger.
- deif 4y ago
  Not sure what your evidence is. Here's my list of studies of vegetarian and vegan children that disprove your claims: * https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/4/832/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/4/832/htm * https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00394-021-02753-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00394-021-02753-3 * https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/5/1707/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/5/1707/htm * https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918 https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918 * https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/growth-of-vegetarian-children.-farm-study-oconnel-1989.pdf https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/grow... * https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/growth-of-british-vegan-children-sanders-1988.pdf https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/grow... * https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-277X.1992.tb00129.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-277X.... * https://www.minervamedica.it/en/journals/minerva-pediatrics/article.php?cod=R15Y9999N00A21041604 https://www.minervamedica.it/en/journals/minerva-pediatrics/... * https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202013492 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202013492 All concluded that vegan diets were healthy for children as long as the parents knew the common deficiencies (B12) and fed their children enough calories. The study you cited is on my list because it seems you didn't read the results where it stated that most children were not eating fortified or supplemented food like Vitamin D, which could easily explain why they have a lower bone density.
  - Gareth321 4y ago
    > Not sure what your evidence is. I provided a study in my very first comment. Did you read it? I'll provide it again for you here: (https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?log https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?log...) The study found vegan children to be at risk of lower stature and bone density. Thank you for the studies, I have reviewed them. In turn: 1. Please review Figure 2. Children on vegan and vegetarian diets presented with higher rates of "stunted or severely stunted," as per the WHO criteria used. This is discussed and confirmed later in the study. The study did not measure bone density at all. 2. This is the same study cited as above. 3. This study explored neither height nor bone density. The blood levels of studied macro-nutrients were in the healthy range, and that's good. 4. In a fascinating twist of fate, you cited the study I cited above, which finds that vegan children are at risk of lower stature and bone density. I'm not sure you read these studies if you think this study confirms your beliefs. 5. This study found that vegetarian children were both shorter, and weighed less. They did not measure bone density. 6. This study found, like the rest, that vegan children were shorter and weighed less. They did not measure bone density. 7. This study, once again, found children to be lighter and shorter. They did not measure bone density. 8. This study, once again, found children to be lighter and lower in "growth percentile." The study did not measure bone density. 9. It's hard to parse this study. The omnivorous children were taller than the vegetarians, but shorter than the vegans. However the vegan cohort was only six in total. Further, the vegetarian children were heavier than the omnivores. These results are the opposite of all of the studies you cited. It is an interesting data point, but it doesn't appear to lend credence to either of our arguments. It's clear that some delta occurs as a result of vegan, vegetarian, and omnivorous diets, and given the wealth of evidence you've submitted, it's clear that vegetarian and especially vegan diets usually result in poorer growth. The study did not measure bone density. I'm not sure you read these studies very thoroughly. I suppose I should thank you for providing so much corroborative evidence that vegan diets are dangerous for children.
    - deif 4y ago
      Very interesting reply. The summaries of all these studies can effectively be summarised as: if you are raising children on a vegan diet, ensure you supplement and have adequate calory intake. Taking datapoints from figures and graphs without understanding the underlying causes and effects is how we spread misinformation. It's great that studies are measuring this so that we understand better how humans can develop successfully. An example of this is in study 6 where you stated that vegan children were shorter and weighed less. Whilst true the study also stated "The energy intake of the vegan children was consistently lower than the recommended daily amounts". It then concluded that with a sensibly planned diet vegan children should have no intellectual or physical problems in their development. So whilst I agree that all the studies did find differences, I disagree that they are somehow proving against my points that a vegan diet in children can be healthy if correctly planned. Due to how the animal agriculture industry creates meat (such as supplementing and fortifying the meat) it is extremely easy to get away with not planning meals with an omnivorous diet.
- legacynl 4y ago
  You have it backwards. Malnutrition can lead to impaired growth and lower bone density. But that doesn't automatically mean that lower bone density and lower stature is evidence of malnutrition. For all we know the measured difference between test and control was much smaller than the standard deviation. Also the list you posted contains substances that our body produces ourselves so we don't need to get these from food (e.g. Creatine)
  - Gareth321 4y ago
    You are conflating study confounds with malnutrition. Lower stature and bone density is in fact clinical evidence of malnutrition. It is possible that the study cohort simultaneously suffered some other malady like radiation poisoning, but it is unlikely they all suffered maladies resulting in the same symptoms. I think the study design is sufficient to rule that out. It is certainly as rigorous as any other peer-reviewed nutritional study.

shafyy 4y ago

The only things lacking in a plant-based diet that is essential are vitamin B12 and D. B12 is also lacking in animal-based diets nowadays, but is supplemented in animal feed. D is also lacking in animal-based diet, so this is not specific to plant-based diets. Vitamins A, B6, F can be found in many plant-based foods. The rest of the stuff you listed are not essential for human health.

Gareth321 4y ago
> B12 is also lacking in animal-based diets nowadays, but is supplemented in animal feed. D is also lacking in animal-based diet, so this is not specific to plant-based diets. B12 is naturally present in fish, meat, poultry, eggs, and dairy products. D is naturally present in oily fish, including salmon, mackerel, and sardines; as well as egg yolks, red meat, and liver. > Vitamins A, B6, F can be found in many plant-based foods. The rest of the stuff you listed are not essential for human health. Only fortified vegan foods contain sufficient quantities to satisfy a healthy diet, and even then, fortification may not be enough; especially for a growing child. Of course it requires one to be diligent in purchasing fortified options. As for the claim that CLA, carnitine, carnosine, cholesterol, creatine, heme-iron, and taurine are not essential, I refer you to these studies and sources: * CLA is an essential fatty acid for humans (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4429457/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4429457/). * Carnitine is considered a conditionally essential amino acid (https://ods.od.nih.gov/News/Carnitine_Conference_Summary.aspx https://ods.od.nih.gov/News/Carnitine_Conference_Summary.asp...). In many cases the body does not synthesise sufficient quantities. * Carnosine can be synthesised with beta-alanine and L-histidine (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8300828/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8300828/), but vegetarians possess 50% lower beta-alanine (Harris, 2007. Harris RC, Jones G, Hill CA, et al. The Carnosine Content of V Lateralis in Vegetarians and Omnivores The FASEB Journal. 2007;21:769.20), and vegetarians subsequently typically possess significantly lower levels of muscle carnosine (Everaert, 2011. Everaert I, Mooyaart A, Baguet A, Zutinic A, Baelde H, Achten E, Taes Y, De Heer E, Derave W. Vegetarianism, female gender and increasing age, but not CNDP1 genotype, are associated with reduced muscle carnosine levels in humans. Amino Acids. 2011 Apr;40(4):1221-9). As per the study by Jukic et al. (2021), carnisine is an extremely important dipeptide for humans. * Cholesterol is essential (https://www.cdc.gov/cholesterol/myths_facts.htm#:~:text=Myth%3A%20All%20cholesterol%20is%20bad,blood%20on%20proteins%20called%20lipoproteins https://www.cdc.gov/cholesterol/myths_facts.htm#:~:text=Myth....). * Heme is essential (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967179/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967179/). * Taurine is essential (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3501277/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3501277/). It's fair to argue that the data on K2, CoQ10, saturated fat isn't as conclusive. While the data is convincing, I can't prove they are essential. They certainly haven't been ruled out as being important to a healthy, balanced diet.

Eduard 4y ago

You have a faulty conclusion, I didn't say most meat and diary is unhealthy. But there is plenty of evidence that a nutrition significantly more vegan than today's western standard is better: healthier, cheaper, and ecologically superior.

stefantalpalaru 4y ago
[dead]