4 ms·

I am from Denmark where we have strong unions protecting our working class and lower middle class. That is a good thing. However what is the benefit of ultra h

by 0xDEF 4y ago

I am from Denmark where we have strong unions protecting our working class and lower middle class. That is a good thing. However what is the benefit of ultra high income FAANG employees unionizing?

malermeister 4y ago
One benefit is stronger labor protection from layoffs like these. Having labor be more powerful can also help when execs push for morally questionable projects. Lastly, FAANG employees are working class.
- code_runner 4y ago
  if you’re earning sky high base comp + stock + benefits at these places you’re not working class. You are incredibly out of touch.
  - occz 4y ago
    The distinguishing factor for being working class/owner class is whether or not you make the majority of your income from your labour, or from your capital. Incredibly well-paid working class, but working class all the same.
  - malermeister 4y ago
    The definition of working class is making their income from selling their labor as opposed to from capital. Everything else is an implementation detail.
    - mypornaccount 4y ago
      I think it’s pretty ignorant to think a staff software engineer at Google and the cleaning lady are in the same boat
      - throwaway173738 4y ago
        It depends on how you define the boat. I think you can argue that in both cases continued servitude is the only way either of them can get food and a place to sleep indoors. There’s a big gulf of experience beyond that. But you can only form a coalition with someone on the basis of common ground. So while you’re both right, it’s not going to help either the cleaner or the engineer get better treatment if they don’t acknowledge similarities where they exist.
        riceart 4y ago
        > I think you can argue that in both cases continued servitude is the only way either of them can get food and a place to sleep indoors. No you can’t argue that because it’s stupid. A typical google software engineer will have made enough that in their early 30s they can quit/retire and live the rest of their life at at least the same standard of living as that cleaning lady (almost none of them find that an acceptable standard but that’s far beyond food and a place to sleep) These are not similar circumstances by any means.
        throwaway173738 4y ago
        So what do you want then, a world where the engineer has the same standard of living as the cleaner or where the cleaner has the same standard of living as the engineer?
        riceart 4y ago
        Umm, neither.
      - malermeister 4y ago
        They both have the surplus value created by their labor stolen by the capitalist class. Of course, that affects the cleaning lady more, but the core theft and the exploitative power dynamics they both are affected by are the same. One of the tricks capital uses to keep control is to pit us against each other. Only through solidarity throughout the entire working class we can affect real change.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
    Not if you have a visa to worry about. Doesn’t matter how much money you have then. You need another job in 30 days or you and your entire family are at risk.
    - cudgy 4y ago
      So, they can take their pile of cash and return to their native country and live like kings?
      - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
        No, because they’ve established a life in the new country. They might have spouse or children. Forced moving js traumatic.
        cudgy 4y ago
        Moving generally sucks. Moving is traumatic whether it is forced or not and whether a migrant or not. It can be almost the same trauma when moving to the other side of a large city as moving to another country. Kids still change schools; spouses still change jobs; housing and community changes; distance to friends and family changes interactions; etc At least a migrant has the option of returning to their home country with a network of family and old friends; natives are stuck jobless and with high cost of living or choosing to uproot and migrate to a new country with lower cost of living, becoming migrants themselves. There is no stress-free ride for anyone.
    - mupuff1234 4y ago
      Pretty sure that with enough money to can solve almost any visa issue one way or another (investor visa etc)
  - ResearchCode 4y ago
    A regular family home with 4 bedrooms near the office is $3M or more. If you have to save aggressively for 10 or 20 years to own a home close to work, then you are at best working class.
serial_dev 4y ago
Just speculating: if we believe that the workers together are stronger than as individuals, they could force even more concessions. They could negotiate higher salaries, more transparency around compensation, more benefits, longer parental leave, bigger budget for travel or education, longer paid vacation, some guarantees and rules for layoffs, etc. In the end, I don't see why unions (IF done right) could only work for the lower class. I know that the TikTok videos of FAANG companies make it all seem like there is no more place to grow, but that's just smoke and mirrors. I think anti union efforts in FAANG companies also play to the employees ego and make them believe that they can negotiate better on their own than together.
kubb 4y ago
Good for you that you're from Denmark. It seems like an amazing country that I would love to visit and spend some time or even live in, but I'm afraid I couldn't fall in love with the language. Unions can ensure that the employees get a fair share of the revenue in proportion to the upper mgmt. They also can remove artificial promotion hurdles, that at Google happens according to destructive internal dynamics. Such dynamics result in deprecating useful and loved products and instead promoting parasitic internal interest groups that can stranglehold growth and innovation in the company. Ultimately, unions give the employees a voice in shaping the company. Now they can walk out, write posts on internal mailing lists, but at the end of the day they're still in a dictatorship, and they have to accept the decisions of the higher ups, and they won't be asked about their opinion.
- slibhb 4y ago
  > Unions can ensure that the employees get a fair share of the revenue in proportion to the upper mgmt What is a fair share of revenue? Is a google SE earning 300K an exploited worker because Pichai earns many times that? > They also can remove artificial promotion hurdles, that at Google happens according to destructive internal dynamics. What is the correct (non-artificial) way to handle promotions? Union workplaces tend to overvalue seniority which isn't a great situation.
- jemmyw 4y ago
  > Good for you that you're from Denmark. It seems like an amazing country that I would love to visit and spend some time or even live in, but I'm afraid I couldn't fall in love with the language. Live in Copenhagen and you can more than get by without knowing the language, although obviously you start picking up some functional words.
danaris 4y ago
Just because a particular group has high salaries in some absolute sense doesn't mean they shouldn't unionize. For one thing, unionization is nearly guaranteed to raise salaries. For another, it will get them better benefits and working conditions. Overall, it reduces inequality, which is one of the major structural problems in our society and economy today.
occz 4y ago
>However what is the benefit of ultra high income FAANG employees unionizing? Same as for any other group that unionizes - maximizing the leverage they have in negotiations with the employer, utilizing this leverage as best they see fit. For examples of two very-high income groups that are unionized, see the Writer's Guild of America and SAG-AFTRA. Just because you make a lot, doesn't mean that having a union is not in your interest.
DSingularity 4y ago
IMO: so they have a voice in matters. These companies are playing roles more impactful on the future of humanity than that played by modern nation states. And who is driving their directions? At best boards and at worst hyper-ambitious individuals looking to climb corporate ladders by any means necessary.

by 0xDEF 4y ago

I am from Denmark where we have strong unions protecting our working class and lower middle class. That is a good thing. However what is the benefit of ultra high income FAANG employees unionizing?

malermeister 4y ago

One benefit is stronger labor protection from layoffs like these. Having labor be more powerful can also help when execs push for morally questionable projects. Lastly, FAANG employees are working class.

code_runner 4y ago
if you’re earning sky high base comp + stock + benefits at these places you’re not working class. You are incredibly out of touch.
- occz 4y ago
  The distinguishing factor for being working class/owner class is whether or not you make the majority of your income from your labour, or from your capital. Incredibly well-paid working class, but working class all the same.
- malermeister 4y ago
  The definition of working class is making their income from selling their labor as opposed to from capital. Everything else is an implementation detail.
  - mypornaccount 4y ago
    I think it’s pretty ignorant to think a staff software engineer at Google and the cleaning lady are in the same boat
    - throwaway173738 4y ago
      It depends on how you define the boat. I think you can argue that in both cases continued servitude is the only way either of them can get food and a place to sleep indoors. There’s a big gulf of experience beyond that. But you can only form a coalition with someone on the basis of common ground. So while you’re both right, it’s not going to help either the cleaner or the engineer get better treatment if they don’t acknowledge similarities where they exist.
      - riceart 4y ago
        > I think you can argue that in both cases continued servitude is the only way either of them can get food and a place to sleep indoors. No you can’t argue that because it’s stupid. A typical google software engineer will have made enough that in their early 30s they can quit/retire and live the rest of their life at at least the same standard of living as that cleaning lady (almost none of them find that an acceptable standard but that’s far beyond food and a place to sleep) These are not similar circumstances by any means.
        throwaway173738 4y ago
        So what do you want then, a world where the engineer has the same standard of living as the cleaner or where the cleaner has the same standard of living as the engineer?
        riceart 4y ago
        Umm, neither.
    - malermeister 4y ago
      They both have the surplus value created by their labor stolen by the capitalist class. Of course, that affects the cleaning lady more, but the core theft and the exploitative power dynamics they both are affected by are the same. One of the tricks capital uses to keep control is to pit us against each other. Only through solidarity throughout the entire working class we can affect real change.
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  Not if you have a visa to worry about. Doesn’t matter how much money you have then. You need another job in 30 days or you and your entire family are at risk.
  - cudgy 4y ago
    So, they can take their pile of cash and return to their native country and live like kings?
    - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
      No, because they’ve established a life in the new country. They might have spouse or children. Forced moving js traumatic.
      - cudgy 4y ago
        Moving generally sucks. Moving is traumatic whether it is forced or not and whether a migrant or not. It can be almost the same trauma when moving to the other side of a large city as moving to another country. Kids still change schools; spouses still change jobs; housing and community changes; distance to friends and family changes interactions; etc At least a migrant has the option of returning to their home country with a network of family and old friends; natives are stuck jobless and with high cost of living or choosing to uproot and migrate to a new country with lower cost of living, becoming migrants themselves. There is no stress-free ride for anyone.
  - mupuff1234 4y ago
    Pretty sure that with enough money to can solve almost any visa issue one way or another (investor visa etc)
- ResearchCode 4y ago
  A regular family home with 4 bedrooms near the office is $3M or more. If you have to save aggressively for 10 or 20 years to own a home close to work, then you are at best working class.

serial_dev 4y ago

Just speculating: if we believe that the workers together are stronger than as individuals, they could force even more concessions. They could negotiate higher salaries, more transparency around compensation, more benefits, longer parental leave, bigger budget for travel or education, longer paid vacation, some guarantees and rules for layoffs, etc. In the end, I don't see why unions (IF done right) could only work for the lower class. I know that the TikTok videos of FAANG companies make it all seem like there is no more place to grow, but that's just smoke and mirrors. I think anti union efforts in FAANG companies also play to the employees ego and make them believe that they can negotiate better on their own than together.

kubb 4y ago

Good for you that you're from Denmark. It seems like an amazing country that I would love to visit and spend some time or even live in, but I'm afraid I couldn't fall in love with the language. Unions can ensure that the employees get a fair share of the revenue in proportion to the upper mgmt. They also can remove artificial promotion hurdles, that at Google happens according to destructive internal dynamics. Such dynamics result in deprecating useful and loved products and instead promoting parasitic internal interest groups that can stranglehold growth and innovation in the company. Ultimately, unions give the employees a voice in shaping the company. Now they can walk out, write posts on internal mailing lists, but at the end of the day they're still in a dictatorship, and they have to accept the decisions of the higher ups, and they won't be asked about their opinion.

slibhb 4y ago
> Unions can ensure that the employees get a fair share of the revenue in proportion to the upper mgmt What is a fair share of revenue? Is a google SE earning 300K an exploited worker because Pichai earns many times that? > They also can remove artificial promotion hurdles, that at Google happens according to destructive internal dynamics. What is the correct (non-artificial) way to handle promotions? Union workplaces tend to overvalue seniority which isn't a great situation.
jemmyw 4y ago
> Good for you that you're from Denmark. It seems like an amazing country that I would love to visit and spend some time or even live in, but I'm afraid I couldn't fall in love with the language. Live in Copenhagen and you can more than get by without knowing the language, although obviously you start picking up some functional words.

danaris 4y ago

Just because a particular group has high salaries in some absolute sense doesn't mean they shouldn't unionize. For one thing, unionization is nearly guaranteed to raise salaries. For another, it will get them better benefits and working conditions. Overall, it reduces inequality, which is one of the major structural problems in our society and economy today.

occz 4y ago

>However what is the benefit of ultra high income FAANG employees unionizing? Same as for any other group that unionizes - maximizing the leverage they have in negotiations with the employer, utilizing this leverage as best they see fit. For examples of two very-high income groups that are unionized, see the Writer's Guild of America and SAG-AFTRA. Just because you make a lot, doesn't mean that having a union is not in your interest.

DSingularity 4y ago

IMO: so they have a voice in matters. These companies are playing roles more impactful on the future of humanity than that played by modern nation states. And who is driving their directions? At best boards and at worst hyper-ambitious individuals looking to climb corporate ladders by any means necessary.