6 ms·

Am I the only one to find this sad? It just means parrots are not meant to be raised alone in homes. Pets should be outside, with their own pet friends

by oulipo 4y ago

ChatGTP 4y ago
Could say the same thing for people, I find remote work super isolating sometimes.
garblegarble 4y ago
Yeah, the whole idea of keeping birds seems painfully sad to me - taking creatures that have this amazing power of natural flight, with agency to explore vast landscapes and see amazing things, and then keeping them inside (and/or sometimes with clipped wings). And added to that how difficult it can be for long-lived birds when their caretakers die and they can be left with somebody who doesn't really like them (or whom they don't really like), or donated to a zoo... a family friend's parrot was given to a (very good) butterfly house when she died and he just seems so sad every time I see him now Maybe I'm just being narrow-minded, and the exact same thing is true for dogs & cats
- xeonmc 4y ago
  It’s why the symbolism of caged birds is a recurrent literary device for a long as the history of literature.
- nopassrecover 4y ago
  Do you feel differently about fish who can swim?
  - eimrine 4y ago
    No fish is so intelligent as the simplest bird.
    - pvaldes 4y ago
      I would not bet my money on it. In some areas fishes can score higher than many other vertebrates for sure, including big apes Anybody keeping an aquarium knows that many fishes are surprisingly smart. Specially predatory fishes. They have a good long term memory and can recognize individual caretaker humans. The brain/bodyweight ratio of some species is bigger than humans. This mean that they have a bigger brain that most birds, lizards and rodents of the same size. Sharks are pretty clever for example.
  - garblegarble 4y ago
    A very good question - I do feel differently about fish, and I think it's the relative level of intelligence. As you suggest, it's clearly not just because birds have an ability to explore an environment natively that humans don't. I'm sure that's a bias towards similarities with human intelligence - to communicate, solve puzzles, and use tools (e.g. crows and parrots) because it would be very sad if people were regularly keeping octopuses in home fish tanks.
- skinkestek 4y ago
  For those like me who thought clipped wings meant exactly that, at least from what I have learned it usually just means removing 1 or 2 large feathers at the wing tips, not amputating an actual part of the wing. Maybe this is obvious to everyone else but for me this thing seemed way worse than it actually was.
  - MandieD 4y ago
    For some pet parrots, yes, flight feathers are trimmed as they come in to temporarily prevent or reduce flight, but traditionally, ducks and geese being raised for meat and feathers do have part of the outside wing joint removed to permanently prevent flight - this is called pinioning.
    - someweirdperson 4y ago
      At least they won't be hungry, getting fed more than they would eat on their own [0]. That seems to be called gavage. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force-feeding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force-feeding
  - garblegarble 4y ago
    While that's good to hear, what disturbs me about clipping wings is robbing a bird of their ability to fly
    - yareally 4y ago
      As long as they're not fully clipped, they can still fly, but they don't get a ton of lift. Parrot owners typically do it so they don't accidentally fly outside and end up in a worse situation than a few clipped feathers that grow back in a few months. Birds get spooked by the most random things, so it's hard to know what will trigger them to fly into danger Fully clipping their flight feathers is cruel, dangerous and can result in injury when a bird falls more than a few feet. Also causes muscle atrophy and makes the birds dependant on their humans
    - skinkestek 4y ago
- sebiandev 4y ago
  Domestic cats are another story. Mine actually prefers inside and is not very social even with other cats. Prefers solitude, sleep, cuddles and eating. My dog, on the other hand, a 70lb Husky mix requires a great deal of activity outside as well as socialization with his pack of friends from the dog park. 2+ hours of physical activity and socialization a day keeps him happy but, you have to be a responsible pet owner, listen to your pets and give them everything they need and more. Your pet shouldn't just be surviving, they should be thriving. It's your responsibility.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
BulgarianIdiot 4y ago
They're not "pets", they're "animals". And social function is one of their primary instincts. But as long as we force them to be pets, they're in fact meant to be raised alone in homes. And they compensate for it by bonding with their owners, which are away most of the time. It's casually cruel, but also I don't think there's such a construct as "pets outside with pet friends". Ideally we'd just let nature handle itself and we stop trying to productize it as home decoration & entertainment.
- locustous 4y ago
  We have several birds, they mostly like the company of other some other birds. But they really like people too. Even the ones always raised around birds grow attached to their people. It's much more complex than "leave animals to the wild". One of our birds is a rescue and had found himself a new family when he had gotten loose. He clearly prefers people over birds, every time. Even with a wide selection. Clearly if you are not home most of the time - don't get birds. But if you are, they are quite good companions if you are also up for their care. And don't mind losing the occasional keyboard to fun time... They tend to be quite happy when they have some even small space to fly and extensive contact with both their people and others birds. I'll often have two on me while coding, by their choice. The others have other preferences for time use. When they get out, and it's happened a few times. They very much prefer to be back in their home with their clearly loved social circle. Flying is nice, it's fun and good exercise, but it's also a means to an end. Being with those they love, finding food, toys, and nesting sites.
  - flangola7 4y ago
    Do you have any durable evidence to back up those anecdotes?
    - locustous 4y ago
      My best summary from years of experience and observations and learning from several birds. Learning to read their likes and dislikes. Also exposure to others who do the same, bird people. It is what it is, whatever you may choose to call it. You may also take it or leave it.
lusus_naturae 4y ago
It is sad. Mainly our approach to other animals is based on disregarding their right to self actualization. Merely saying this makes one seem like a kook or zealot. But it's just pointing out that taking a human-centric approach to other intelligent organisms is easy to do because we are the apex predator. I don't blame or judge anyone but it disturbs me all the same. A thought experiment I really like is how I would feel about doing something if I wasn't part of a group of apex predators. It's simplistic, but personally I find it provides clarity.
Micoloth 4y ago
Once again, The Onion news was just 10 years too early https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkWS4t4l0k https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkWS4t4l0k (Sorry low effort comment but I couldn’t resist)
- PebblesRox 4y ago
  I was expecting this one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sh3kx9Qa3UU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sh3kx9Qa3UU
layer8 4y ago
The very concept of pets is unethical towards animals.
- moralestapia 4y ago
  I'm on this boat as well. Keeping other life captive for your own sporadic amusement is pathologically self-centered.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    Adopting injured animals sometimes leaves them dependent. We have an aviary of deceive pigeons. They each have a different issue. Is letting them die kinder? I’d say that it is sometimes, but it gets complicated fast.
- quesera 4y ago
  Some animals-turned-pets developed/evolved symbiotically with humans, and continued through selective breeding (inevitably, and with mixed virtue). The classic example is wild dogs to work dogs to pet dogs. I think this is healthy and remains symbiotic. And the classic example of excess is all the sad purebred dogs, developed by bad people to accentuate some aesthetic values with inadequate regard for the (sometimes life-long) pain and discomfort caused by side effects of the genetic selection. Agreed on birds though. They are pretty and entertaining, but how can it not be cruel to cage a bird? Do all those African Grays who amuse and seem to enjoy their humans really just suffer from Stockholm Syndrome? I don't know, but I don't trust that the humans have thought about it in a non self-serving way. And don't get me started on zoos... :(
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - kube-system 4y ago
    The initial existence of pet and worker breeds may be symbiotic and natural, but the way people treat them like a slave species and perpetuate them is arbitrarily done for the convenience of humans. I can’t stand when I see “my fur baby is lost!” when describing the escape of large adult social dog. No, that dog knows how to get home. It escaped its prison.
yareally 4y ago
It's actually illegal to import parrots into the United States now. Nearly all the ones that are here are not going to live out in the wild and survive. I see this discussion about freeing them all the time, but that ship sailed when they were taken from their habitat and bred in capitivity. Best we can do is minimize the damage by dissuading ownership and reduce the number bred for pets That said, I dissuade everyone that tells me they want a parrot from getting one, not for the reason you gave, but because most people treat them like cats or dogs and that doesn't work. They're more like toddlers and approaching them like that usually works better. I have several smaller parrots I rescued from someone that let them go outside and didn't want them back (conure and some budgies) and they're quite content. They're usually more interested in interacting with my family than each other. I love mine, but they require more attention than most people want to give They get plenty of open space indoors to fly around, but not every parrot likes to fly. Quite a few would rather climb, because it's a lot of effort to get lift with a bulky parrot body.
Reptur 4y ago
I can't help but think of course video calls would help a social animal that is solitary except for their human owner and maybe another species of pet. Someday I hope we will rethink how we live with animals and give them the compassion and habitat that we would want for ourselves if we were in their position. I would much prefer to visit a wonderful parrot habitat I help conserve where I can view happy flourishing parrots in the wild then own one and potentially give it Zoochosis.

Am I the only one to find this sad? It just means parrots are not meant to be raised alone in homes. Pets should be outside, with their own pet friends

by oulipo 4y ago

Am I the only one to find this sad? It just means parrots are not meant to be raised alone in homes. Pets should be outside, with their own pet friends

ChatGTP 4y ago

Could say the same thing for people, I find remote work super isolating sometimes.

garblegarble 4y ago

Yeah, the whole idea of keeping birds seems painfully sad to me - taking creatures that have this amazing power of natural flight, with agency to explore vast landscapes and see amazing things, and then keeping them inside (and/or sometimes with clipped wings). And added to that how difficult it can be for long-lived birds when their caretakers die and they can be left with somebody who doesn't really like them (or whom they don't really like), or donated to a zoo... a family friend's parrot was given to a (very good) butterfly house when she died and he just seems so sad every time I see him now Maybe I'm just being narrow-minded, and the exact same thing is true for dogs & cats

xeonmc 4y ago
It’s why the symbolism of caged birds is a recurrent literary device for a long as the history of literature.
nopassrecover 4y ago
Do you feel differently about fish who can swim?
- eimrine 4y ago
  No fish is so intelligent as the simplest bird.
  - pvaldes 4y ago
    I would not bet my money on it. In some areas fishes can score higher than many other vertebrates for sure, including big apes Anybody keeping an aquarium knows that many fishes are surprisingly smart. Specially predatory fishes. They have a good long term memory and can recognize individual caretaker humans. The brain/bodyweight ratio of some species is bigger than humans. This mean that they have a bigger brain that most birds, lizards and rodents of the same size. Sharks are pretty clever for example.
- garblegarble 4y ago
  A very good question - I do feel differently about fish, and I think it's the relative level of intelligence. As you suggest, it's clearly not just because birds have an ability to explore an environment natively that humans don't. I'm sure that's a bias towards similarities with human intelligence - to communicate, solve puzzles, and use tools (e.g. crows and parrots) because it would be very sad if people were regularly keeping octopuses in home fish tanks.
skinkestek 4y ago
For those like me who thought clipped wings meant exactly that, at least from what I have learned it usually just means removing 1 or 2 large feathers at the wing tips, not amputating an actual part of the wing. Maybe this is obvious to everyone else but for me this thing seemed way worse than it actually was.
- MandieD 4y ago
  For some pet parrots, yes, flight feathers are trimmed as they come in to temporarily prevent or reduce flight, but traditionally, ducks and geese being raised for meat and feathers do have part of the outside wing joint removed to permanently prevent flight - this is called pinioning.
  - someweirdperson 4y ago
    At least they won't be hungry, getting fed more than they would eat on their own [0]. That seems to be called gavage. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force-feeding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force-feeding
- garblegarble 4y ago
  While that's good to hear, what disturbs me about clipping wings is robbing a bird of their ability to fly
  - yareally 4y ago
    As long as they're not fully clipped, they can still fly, but they don't get a ton of lift. Parrot owners typically do it so they don't accidentally fly outside and end up in a worse situation than a few clipped feathers that grow back in a few months. Birds get spooked by the most random things, so it's hard to know what will trigger them to fly into danger Fully clipping their flight feathers is cruel, dangerous and can result in injury when a bird falls more than a few feet. Also causes muscle atrophy and makes the birds dependant on their humans
  - skinkestek 4y ago
sebiandev 4y ago
Domestic cats are another story. Mine actually prefers inside and is not very social even with other cats. Prefers solitude, sleep, cuddles and eating. My dog, on the other hand, a 70lb Husky mix requires a great deal of activity outside as well as socialization with his pack of friends from the dog park. 2+ hours of physical activity and socialization a day keeps him happy but, you have to be a responsible pet owner, listen to your pets and give them everything they need and more. Your pet shouldn't just be surviving, they should be thriving. It's your responsibility.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

BulgarianIdiot 4y ago

They're not "pets", they're "animals". And social function is one of their primary instincts. But as long as we force them to be pets, they're in fact meant to be raised alone in homes. And they compensate for it by bonding with their owners, which are away most of the time. It's casually cruel, but also I don't think there's such a construct as "pets outside with pet friends". Ideally we'd just let nature handle itself and we stop trying to productize it as home decoration & entertainment.

locustous 4y ago
We have several birds, they mostly like the company of other some other birds. But they really like people too. Even the ones always raised around birds grow attached to their people. It's much more complex than "leave animals to the wild". One of our birds is a rescue and had found himself a new family when he had gotten loose. He clearly prefers people over birds, every time. Even with a wide selection. Clearly if you are not home most of the time - don't get birds. But if you are, they are quite good companions if you are also up for their care. And don't mind losing the occasional keyboard to fun time... They tend to be quite happy when they have some even small space to fly and extensive contact with both their people and others birds. I'll often have two on me while coding, by their choice. The others have other preferences for time use. When they get out, and it's happened a few times. They very much prefer to be back in their home with their clearly loved social circle. Flying is nice, it's fun and good exercise, but it's also a means to an end. Being with those they love, finding food, toys, and nesting sites.
- flangola7 4y ago
  Do you have any durable evidence to back up those anecdotes?
  - locustous 4y ago
    My best summary from years of experience and observations and learning from several birds. Learning to read their likes and dislikes. Also exposure to others who do the same, bird people. It is what it is, whatever you may choose to call it. You may also take it or leave it.

lusus_naturae 4y ago

It is sad. Mainly our approach to other animals is based on disregarding their right to self actualization. Merely saying this makes one seem like a kook or zealot. But it's just pointing out that taking a human-centric approach to other intelligent organisms is easy to do because we are the apex predator. I don't blame or judge anyone but it disturbs me all the same. A thought experiment I really like is how I would feel about doing something if I wasn't part of a group of apex predators. It's simplistic, but personally I find it provides clarity.

Micoloth 4y ago

Once again, The Onion news was just 10 years too early https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkWS4t4l0k https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkWS4t4l0k (Sorry low effort comment but I couldn’t resist)

PebblesRox 4y ago
I was expecting this one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sh3kx9Qa3UU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sh3kx9Qa3UU

layer8 4y ago

The very concept of pets is unethical towards animals.

moralestapia 4y ago
I'm on this boat as well. Keeping other life captive for your own sporadic amusement is pathologically self-centered.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  Adopting injured animals sometimes leaves them dependent. We have an aviary of deceive pigeons. They each have a different issue. Is letting them die kinder? I’d say that it is sometimes, but it gets complicated fast.
quesera 4y ago
Some animals-turned-pets developed/evolved symbiotically with humans, and continued through selective breeding (inevitably, and with mixed virtue). The classic example is wild dogs to work dogs to pet dogs. I think this is healthy and remains symbiotic. And the classic example of excess is all the sad purebred dogs, developed by bad people to accentuate some aesthetic values with inadequate regard for the (sometimes life-long) pain and discomfort caused by side effects of the genetic selection. Agreed on birds though. They are pretty and entertaining, but how can it not be cruel to cage a bird? Do all those African Grays who amuse and seem to enjoy their humans really just suffer from Stockholm Syndrome? I don't know, but I don't trust that the humans have thought about it in a non self-serving way. And don't get me started on zoos... :(
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kube-system 4y ago
  The initial existence of pet and worker breeds may be symbiotic and natural, but the way people treat them like a slave species and perpetuate them is arbitrarily done for the convenience of humans. I can’t stand when I see “my fur baby is lost!” when describing the escape of large adult social dog. No, that dog knows how to get home. It escaped its prison.

yareally 4y ago

It's actually illegal to import parrots into the United States now. Nearly all the ones that are here are not going to live out in the wild and survive. I see this discussion about freeing them all the time, but that ship sailed when they were taken from their habitat and bred in capitivity. Best we can do is minimize the damage by dissuading ownership and reduce the number bred for pets That said, I dissuade everyone that tells me they want a parrot from getting one, not for the reason you gave, but because most people treat them like cats or dogs and that doesn't work. They're more like toddlers and approaching them like that usually works better. I have several smaller parrots I rescued from someone that let them go outside and didn't want them back (conure and some budgies) and they're quite content. They're usually more interested in interacting with my family than each other. I love mine, but they require more attention than most people want to give They get plenty of open space indoors to fly around, but not every parrot likes to fly. Quite a few would rather climb, because it's a lot of effort to get lift with a bulky parrot body.

Reptur 4y ago

I can't help but think of course video calls would help a social animal that is solitary except for their human owner and maybe another species of pet. Someday I hope we will rethink how we live with animals and give them the compassion and habitat that we would want for ourselves if we were in their position. I would much prefer to visit a wonderful parrot habitat I help conserve where I can view happy flourishing parrots in the wild then own one and potentially give it Zoochosis.