8 ms·

Probably going to be short lasted, as the nutritional deficiencies caused by those products start to produce symptoms. Then plant based diets will become stigma

by xk_id 4y ago

Probably going to be short lasted, as the nutritional deficiencies caused by those products start to produce symptoms. Then plant based diets will become stigmatised. The trend in plant foods to label them with names for animal products is very misleading when the nutritional profiles have absolutely nothing in common. Oat “milk” is basically flavoured water; soy “milk” has a little bit of nutrients in it, but it’s negligible. Vegan “meat” from wheat/seitan (the most popular version) contains a type of protein that is not digestible. Vegan “cheese” from coconut oil and starch is also nutritionally empty. And so on. I know all this because I’ve been vegan for 5+ years and i had to study a lot to understand how to be responsible about my diet. You have to go to basics and use raw ingredients. The processed products on the market are not good for you.

Akronymus 4y ago
The push for x product but vegan annoys me quite a bit, tbh. There are lots of really amazing vegan meals. But noooo, gotta emulate non-vegan meals. As you said, nutritionally empty, but also just plain tasting worse IME.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  There are a lot of people like me that just prefer eating vegan foods for animal welfare reasons. But do love the taste of meat. It's also a good transitional method during a period of change because people already know what taste they like. This is why. Of course many foods can be even better exploiting the best sides of their ingredients but it will be different so it will be harder to convince people. This will just take longer. I think it's principally the vegan burgers that are pretty horrible, just big fatty patties with no nutricional value, and not very tasty either, with some exceptions like Beyond.
- danielbln 4y ago
  Nothing wrong with emulating non-vegan foods. Culturally we have honed non-vegan meals for a _long_ time, and it only makes sense to tap into those learning by substituting certain ingredients but keeping taste, mouthfeel and pairing options intact. Of course, if you shovel nothing but processed food into your maw, that's going to be bad for you, vegan or not.
rebuilder 4y ago
Seitan is gluten which is perfectly digestible, unless of course you are sensitive to it. The oat milks I see sold here are fortified with calcium and vitamins as well as iodine. No argument on vegan cheeses.
- ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
  > Seitan is gluten which is perfectly digestible, unless of course you are sensitive to it. However, gliadin doesn't get fully digested/broken down - it's about 70% of the protein in gluten.
- xk_id 4y ago
  Oatly “brags” about not adding anything “extra” to their products (meaning they don’t even fortify with synthetic vitamins). Gluten has a protein digestibility score of 0.25 - compared to 1 for animal protein. [0] The bioavailability of synthetic vitamins used for fortification varies (e.g for b12, the methyl-, hydroxo- and cyano- variants are not equally effective at treating deficiency) and is different from natural sources (where cofactors and the vegetal matrix play a role in absorption). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score#Example_values https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Correcte...
ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
> Vegan “meat” from wheat/seitan (the most popular version) contains a type of protein that is not digestible That would be gluten/gliadin. I'm somewhat gluten sensitive (makes psoriasis flare up) and have been pescetarian for over 30 years and I find that vegan "alternatives" are generally quite bad. They tend to use lots of fat (makes it taste better) and rely heavily on pastry/breadcrumbs which makes it unsuitable for me. I totally agree with the cooking food yourself principle - it's the only way to not end up eating processed rubbish.
morsch 4y ago
Lots of people eat these products without being vegan or vegetarian.
- whywhywhywhy 4y ago
  Don’t know why you’d eat the fake versions if you could have the real ones.
  - morsch 4y ago
    Tastes fine, can share a meal with people who are vegetarian, enviromental concerns, novelty.
  - aembleton 4y ago
    Some people prefer the taste of the 'fake' versions.
  - NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
    I drank almond "milk" for a while, because it was shelf-stable until opened and wouldn't sour in a week, but also it is vanilla-flavoured and loaded with sugar.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  Exactly. Raises hand I try to eat animal products less for countless reasons that I really hope are obvious, but I still eat them even if I don't feel good about it. Btw I don't cook. Don't want my coffee black? Alt milk. If it's as good as water, great--water won't kill me. Want to eat a substantial meal but all that's sold here is some impossible(tm) concoction? I'll eat that thing if it's meal time. I may eat fish or even meat some other time and I try with various success to maintain a diverse diet anyway (beans etc.) so I reckon I might get the nutrients I need, that's not a problem. I agree it might hurt someone who naively tries to go vegan just eating these things, but they are not a threat for people like me (probably more of those than full vegans).
throwaway290 4y ago
What about almond milk?
- xk_id 4y ago
  Alpro for example uses 2.3% almonds. That’s 5 almonds per glass of almond milk. And it’s a water extraction, which will not get most of the nutrients out. Instead they fortify it with a modest amount of synthetic vitamins.
nicoburns 4y ago
I know very few people (vegan or otherwise) who actually like vegan cheese. Most prefer to skip cheese if they’re eating vegan.
- InvaderFizz 4y ago
  I have had good luck with the Follow Your Heart brand "American Singles" and "Provalone" flavors from Sprouts. They melt well enough in a hot sandwich. They are terrible cold. I'll always prefer real cheese(the more pungent the better), but my digestive system does not.
PretzelPirate 4y ago
> Probably going to be short lasted, as the nutritional deficiencies caused by those products start to produce symptoms. >... > I know all this because I’ve been vegan for 5+ years and i had to study a lot to >... > The processed products on the market are not good for you. You appear to have a bias and are proclaiming that everyone will soon align with your bias. I've been vegan for over 13 years and eat a ton of processed vegan foods, a lot of oil, and don't have a ton of fresh fruits of vegetables. Clearly my diet isn't as healthy as yours, but it's close to the typical American diet. My latest checkup and blood test show that all of my key health indicators are in the middle of the healthy range and my organs are all working as expected. It's unlikely that, in general, people will notice some nutritional deficit from eating plant-based mock meat and dairy products and stop purchasing them.
- Gareth321 4y ago
  I knew a smoker who lived to 90. I'm not sure how either of our anecdotes are valuable here.
  - d23 4y ago
    Yours less so. The commenter made an extraordinary claim, without evidence, that nutritional deficiencies would soon appear as a result of vegan food. The responder at least cited personal evidence that despite being on a vegan diet for 13 years they have had no abnormal blood work. Obviously it’s not as valuable as a well constructed large scale study, but it’s at least marginally better than literally nothing.
    - fatfingerd 4y ago
      This is an example of something you aren't going to disprove in a large study. It is known that people relying too heavily on processed food makers suffer deficiencies and a reasonable hypothesis that food processing working with less choices will raise the rates of some deficiencies. A change on the order of 1 in 10 000 vegans is not going to show up in an affordable study but in something suspiciously close to an opinion piece in a rag newspaper.
Gigachad 4y ago
I’m not vegan but I don’t use milk at all. I don’t think I’d suffer any problems by adding soy milk to my coffee vs the nothing I currently add.
ornornor 4y ago
If you actually put a little thought in your vegan diet, it’s fine. I personally struggled with iron deficiency after switching, but increased my iron-rich vegetables intake along with cooking in a cast iron pan (yes it transfers to the food and to you). Along with semi regular blood tests, you’re fine. I also wonder who really gets confused at the supermarket seeing plant milk and cow milk and mistakenly buying one for the other… How can you be “mislead” when even a 6yo knows that cow milk cannot possibly come from plants, or that a vegan burger cannot possibly be made out of a dead animal?
dayvid 4y ago
The most important thing is food education. Most people's eating habits are inherited from their parents and family. It's really hard to change them. In USA at least, the default options are not good. You have to make most of your own meals or be selectively eat at "healthy" restaurants if you want to be healthy. Otherwise you'll be overweight or skinny-fat. I think Europeans have much better default options than Americans and can see how veganism may not net the same benefits as it would in the states. I've been vegetarian for 10+ years. The lack of options in USA has actually made me healthier as I have to prepare my own food more often, but I know some unhealthy vegans who just don't cook.

by xk_id 4y ago

Akronymus 4y ago

The push for x product but vegan annoys me quite a bit, tbh. There are lots of really amazing vegan meals. But noooo, gotta emulate non-vegan meals. As you said, nutritionally empty, but also just plain tasting worse IME.

wkat4242 4y ago
There are a lot of people like me that just prefer eating vegan foods for animal welfare reasons. But do love the taste of meat. It's also a good transitional method during a period of change because people already know what taste they like. This is why. Of course many foods can be even better exploiting the best sides of their ingredients but it will be different so it will be harder to convince people. This will just take longer. I think it's principally the vegan burgers that are pretty horrible, just big fatty patties with no nutricional value, and not very tasty either, with some exceptions like Beyond.
danielbln 4y ago
Nothing wrong with emulating non-vegan foods. Culturally we have honed non-vegan meals for a _long_ time, and it only makes sense to tap into those learning by substituting certain ingredients but keeping taste, mouthfeel and pairing options intact. Of course, if you shovel nothing but processed food into your maw, that's going to be bad for you, vegan or not.

rebuilder 4y ago

Seitan is gluten which is perfectly digestible, unless of course you are sensitive to it. The oat milks I see sold here are fortified with calcium and vitamins as well as iodine. No argument on vegan cheeses.

ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
> Seitan is gluten which is perfectly digestible, unless of course you are sensitive to it. However, gliadin doesn't get fully digested/broken down - it's about 70% of the protein in gluten.
xk_id 4y ago
Oatly “brags” about not adding anything “extra” to their products (meaning they don’t even fortify with synthetic vitamins). Gluten has a protein digestibility score of 0.25 - compared to 1 for animal protein. [0] The bioavailability of synthetic vitamins used for fortification varies (e.g for b12, the methyl-, hydroxo- and cyano- variants are not equally effective at treating deficiency) and is different from natural sources (where cofactors and the vegetal matrix play a role in absorption). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score#Example_values https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Correcte...

ndsipa_pomu 4y ago

> Vegan “meat” from wheat/seitan (the most popular version) contains a type of protein that is not digestible That would be gluten/gliadin. I'm somewhat gluten sensitive (makes psoriasis flare up) and have been pescetarian for over 30 years and I find that vegan "alternatives" are generally quite bad. They tend to use lots of fat (makes it taste better) and rely heavily on pastry/breadcrumbs which makes it unsuitable for me. I totally agree with the cooking food yourself principle - it's the only way to not end up eating processed rubbish.

morsch 4y ago

Lots of people eat these products without being vegan or vegetarian.

whywhywhywhy 4y ago
Don’t know why you’d eat the fake versions if you could have the real ones.
- morsch 4y ago
  Tastes fine, can share a meal with people who are vegetarian, enviromental concerns, novelty.
- aembleton 4y ago
  Some people prefer the taste of the 'fake' versions.
- NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
  I drank almond "milk" for a while, because it was shelf-stable until opened and wouldn't sour in a week, but also it is vanilla-flavoured and loaded with sugar.
throwaway290 4y ago
Exactly. Raises hand I try to eat animal products less for countless reasons that I really hope are obvious, but I still eat them even if I don't feel good about it. Btw I don't cook. Don't want my coffee black? Alt milk. If it's as good as water, great--water won't kill me. Want to eat a substantial meal but all that's sold here is some impossible(tm) concoction? I'll eat that thing if it's meal time. I may eat fish or even meat some other time and I try with various success to maintain a diverse diet anyway (beans etc.) so I reckon I might get the nutrients I need, that's not a problem. I agree it might hurt someone who naively tries to go vegan just eating these things, but they are not a threat for people like me (probably more of those than full vegans).

throwaway290 4y ago

What about almond milk?

xk_id 4y ago
Alpro for example uses 2.3% almonds. That’s 5 almonds per glass of almond milk. And it’s a water extraction, which will not get most of the nutrients out. Instead they fortify it with a modest amount of synthetic vitamins.

nicoburns 4y ago

I know very few people (vegan or otherwise) who actually like vegan cheese. Most prefer to skip cheese if they’re eating vegan.

InvaderFizz 4y ago
I have had good luck with the Follow Your Heart brand "American Singles" and "Provalone" flavors from Sprouts. They melt well enough in a hot sandwich. They are terrible cold. I'll always prefer real cheese(the more pungent the better), but my digestive system does not.

PretzelPirate 4y ago

> Probably going to be short lasted, as the nutritional deficiencies caused by those products start to produce symptoms. >... > I know all this because I’ve been vegan for 5+ years and i had to study a lot to >... > The processed products on the market are not good for you. You appear to have a bias and are proclaiming that everyone will soon align with your bias. I've been vegan for over 13 years and eat a ton of processed vegan foods, a lot of oil, and don't have a ton of fresh fruits of vegetables. Clearly my diet isn't as healthy as yours, but it's close to the typical American diet. My latest checkup and blood test show that all of my key health indicators are in the middle of the healthy range and my organs are all working as expected. It's unlikely that, in general, people will notice some nutritional deficit from eating plant-based mock meat and dairy products and stop purchasing them.

Gareth321 4y ago
I knew a smoker who lived to 90. I'm not sure how either of our anecdotes are valuable here.
- d23 4y ago
  Yours less so. The commenter made an extraordinary claim, without evidence, that nutritional deficiencies would soon appear as a result of vegan food. The responder at least cited personal evidence that despite being on a vegan diet for 13 years they have had no abnormal blood work. Obviously it’s not as valuable as a well constructed large scale study, but it’s at least marginally better than literally nothing.
  - fatfingerd 4y ago
    This is an example of something you aren't going to disprove in a large study. It is known that people relying too heavily on processed food makers suffer deficiencies and a reasonable hypothesis that food processing working with less choices will raise the rates of some deficiencies. A change on the order of 1 in 10 000 vegans is not going to show up in an affordable study but in something suspiciously close to an opinion piece in a rag newspaper.

Gigachad 4y ago

I’m not vegan but I don’t use milk at all. I don’t think I’d suffer any problems by adding soy milk to my coffee vs the nothing I currently add.

ornornor 4y ago

If you actually put a little thought in your vegan diet, it’s fine. I personally struggled with iron deficiency after switching, but increased my iron-rich vegetables intake along with cooking in a cast iron pan (yes it transfers to the food and to you). Along with semi regular blood tests, you’re fine. I also wonder who really gets confused at the supermarket seeing plant milk and cow milk and mistakenly buying one for the other… How can you be “mislead” when even a 6yo knows that cow milk cannot possibly come from plants, or that a vegan burger cannot possibly be made out of a dead animal?

dayvid 4y ago

The most important thing is food education. Most people's eating habits are inherited from their parents and family. It's really hard to change them. In USA at least, the default options are not good. You have to make most of your own meals or be selectively eat at "healthy" restaurants if you want to be healthy. Otherwise you'll be overweight or skinny-fat. I think Europeans have much better default options than Americans and can see how veganism may not net the same benefits as it would in the states. I've been vegetarian for 10+ years. The lack of options in USA has actually made me healthier as I have to prepare my own food more often, but I know some unhealthy vegans who just don't cook.