3 ms·

there are currently two things we are aware of in the universe that can reason abstractly. i don't think this is a coincidence.

runarberg 3y ago
Only in a very anthropocentric sense. How do we know an ant colony doesn’t reason abstractly (or a human town for that matter)? What about slime mold or ameba? Both can solve a maze as well as humans. What makes you think a forest ecosystem isn’t capable of abstract though? It is only if we narrow thought to mean precisely human-like thought when humans and human creations are uniquely capable of something. To that extent, our models of intelligence is very much in the pre-copernican era.
- maroonblazer 3y ago
  Isn't reasoning abstractly a spectrum though? I took the parent to mean "reason abstractly to the same degree humans do". Slime molds and amebas might be able to reason abstractly to some degree but they can't write code or poetry.
  - runarberg 3y ago
    Like I said, only in an anthropocentric sense. How do you know fungal networks don’t write and read poetry under the forest floor? If they do—and we have no reason to doubt that they do—you wouldn’t be able to read them, let alone understand them. The earth’s biosphere as a whole also writes code, just in DNA as opposed to on silicon transistors, why exclude the earth’s biosphere from things capable of abstract thought?
- nyolfen 3y ago
  > Only in a very anthropocentric sense. yes, that is the sense in which we are discussing intelligence in order to debate whether the human brain and LLMs operate on similar phenomena
  - runarberg 3y ago
    The fact that both humans and LLMs can both reason abstractly is an uninteresting fact if we define “abstract reasoning” to be exactly what humans do, and then create models with the goal of recreating exactly that. This is than simply a statement of an accurate model, and the word intelligence is there only to confuse. This would be like finding a flower which produces a unique fragrance, then create a perfume which approaches the same fragrance and then conclude that since these are the only two things in the universe which can create this fragrance there must be something special about that perfume.
    - nyolfen 3y ago
      i would define abstract reasoning as composing and manipulating a model of reality or other complex system in order to make predictions > is an uninteresting fact if we define “abstract reasoning” to be exactly what humans do, and then create models with the goal of recreating exactly that if you find this uninteresting, we have perhaps an irreconcilably differing view of things
      - runarberg 3y ago
        Your definition excludes language models, as they are in and of them selves just a model which interpolates from data (i.e. makes predictions). But your definition also includes lots of other systems, most mammalian brains construct some kind of models of reality in order to make predictions. And we have no idea whether other systems (such as fungal networks or ant colonies) do that. I’m not saying these language models—or my hypothetical perfume—aren’t an amazing feat of technology, however neither has any deep philosophical implications about shared properties other than the ones constructed to do so. Meaning, even if LLMs and humans are the only two things in the universe that can reason abstractly in the same way humans do, that doesn’t mean the latter has any more properties shared with the former.
Mezzie 3y ago
More than 2. For an example, crows can effectively use tools and communicate abstract concepts to one another from a memory. Which means they can observe a situation, draw conclusions, and use those conclusions to act as well as make decisions on how to act. That would seem to meet the bar for reasoning abstractly.

runarberg 3y ago

Only in a very anthropocentric sense. How do we know an ant colony doesn’t reason abstractly (or a human town for that matter)? What about slime mold or ameba? Both can solve a maze as well as humans. What makes you think a forest ecosystem isn’t capable of abstract though? It is only if we narrow thought to mean precisely human-like thought when humans and human creations are uniquely capable of something. To that extent, our models of intelligence is very much in the pre-copernican era.

maroonblazer 3y ago
Isn't reasoning abstractly a spectrum though? I took the parent to mean "reason abstractly to the same degree humans do". Slime molds and amebas might be able to reason abstractly to some degree but they can't write code or poetry.
- runarberg 3y ago
  Like I said, only in an anthropocentric sense. How do you know fungal networks don’t write and read poetry under the forest floor? If they do—and we have no reason to doubt that they do—you wouldn’t be able to read them, let alone understand them. The earth’s biosphere as a whole also writes code, just in DNA as opposed to on silicon transistors, why exclude the earth’s biosphere from things capable of abstract thought?
nyolfen 3y ago
> Only in a very anthropocentric sense. yes, that is the sense in which we are discussing intelligence in order to debate whether the human brain and LLMs operate on similar phenomena
- runarberg 3y ago
  The fact that both humans and LLMs can both reason abstractly is an uninteresting fact if we define “abstract reasoning” to be exactly what humans do, and then create models with the goal of recreating exactly that. This is than simply a statement of an accurate model, and the word intelligence is there only to confuse. This would be like finding a flower which produces a unique fragrance, then create a perfume which approaches the same fragrance and then conclude that since these are the only two things in the universe which can create this fragrance there must be something special about that perfume.
  - nyolfen 3y ago
    i would define abstract reasoning as composing and manipulating a model of reality or other complex system in order to make predictions > is an uninteresting fact if we define “abstract reasoning” to be exactly what humans do, and then create models with the goal of recreating exactly that if you find this uninteresting, we have perhaps an irreconcilably differing view of things
    - runarberg 3y ago
      Your definition excludes language models, as they are in and of them selves just a model which interpolates from data (i.e. makes predictions). But your definition also includes lots of other systems, most mammalian brains construct some kind of models of reality in order to make predictions. And we have no idea whether other systems (such as fungal networks or ant colonies) do that. I’m not saying these language models—or my hypothetical perfume—aren’t an amazing feat of technology, however neither has any deep philosophical implications about shared properties other than the ones constructed to do so. Meaning, even if LLMs and humans are the only two things in the universe that can reason abstractly in the same way humans do, that doesn’t mean the latter has any more properties shared with the former.

Mezzie 3y ago

More than 2. For an example, crows can effectively use tools and communicate abstract concepts to one another from a memory. Which means they can observe a situation, draw conclusions, and use those conclusions to act as well as make decisions on how to act. That would seem to meet the bar for reasoning abstractly.