3 ms·

> especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_ Wait, what? Where is masculinity in the DSM or ICD

> especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_ Wait, what? Where is masculinity in the DSM or ICD? I’m pretty sure being a guy isn’t a mental illness dude. > I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life I think a guy who is dedicating his career on teaching men to celebrate going outside and making dude friends, the very small steps out of isolation and depression, on the platform where they are most likely to waste their lives in (twitch gamer streams) is precisely this kind of guy. He is actively building his life on encouraging other men to live positive, happy, fulfilling lives, one step at a time. > Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Jordan Peterson says he advocates for men but also he advocated for a bunch of bs that had nothing to do with living a healthy life, like rah rah against pronouns. Dude pronouns have nothing to do with you as a man. Get over it.

ameminator 3y ago
ASA labels masculinity harmful: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/10/american-psychological-association-traditional-masculinity-harmful/2538520002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/1... In regards to your specific examples, I'm very happy you personally derived value from this influencer/streamer's videos, but I kind of see that as part of the problem - a good male role model shouldn't just be a twitch streamer. Sure, if his content is helping people, promote it (I personally didn't see the value from what little content of theirs that I have watched, but you do you), but maybe your idea of a good role model is different than mine. In regards to Jordan Peterson, he's just a specific example - but he was (I don't think he is anymore) very influential in this debate for a period of time and I just didn't think the conversation would be complete without bringing him up. What you wrote in your last paragraph is common: "He didn't want to use pronouns, therefore I will dismiss anything and everything he ever wrote/said". (Nevermind that the whole issue was the Canadian government forcing its professors to conform to a specific ideology if they wanted to keep their jobs - in Canada, almost all education is government-run).
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  Apparently the exact language was “certain aspects of traditional masculinity” as “ a particular constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including: anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence.” And yeah I can see where certain aspects of this suck. Anti-femininity is, to me, not very masculine. Masculinity is to stand on its own without being against the other sex. Eschewal against appearance of weakness is also to me not masculine. Humbleness is confidence. Papering over your flaws is super insecure, not confident, and pretty not masculine. I think you made this model of masculinity and then eschewed happy, whole men who don’t fit in that box. Healthygamer is a man, who is happily heterosexually married, who is dedicating his life to uplifting his fellow men. I think that’s a win for all men. Jordan Peterson frankly strikes me as kind of miserable in comparison. Healthygamer doesn’t go on long tweet tirades about pronouns and genders. He just focused on the mission, which is addressing men’s issues.
  - DangitBobby 3y ago
    It's a mistake (or intentionally othering) to malign something like "traditional masculinity", which many people identify as a set of qualities about themselves that they enjoy, rather than just pointing out the _specific things_ about "traditional masculinity" that are considered harmful. I like being traditionally masculine, personality, I consider some of the personality traits I associate with it as virtuous and even help guide me in daily life. It's also helpful to enemies of feminism and modern thought on gender roles: now all I have to say is "see, look, they are calling what you are a personality disorder!" and I can convince them to dismiss the entire movement whole cloth.

ameminator 3y ago

ASA labels masculinity harmful: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/10/american-psychological-association-traditional-masculinity-harmful/2538520002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/1... In regards to your specific examples, I'm very happy you personally derived value from this influencer/streamer's videos, but I kind of see that as part of the problem - a good male role model shouldn't just be a twitch streamer. Sure, if his content is helping people, promote it (I personally didn't see the value from what little content of theirs that I have watched, but you do you), but maybe your idea of a good role model is different than mine. In regards to Jordan Peterson, he's just a specific example - but he was (I don't think he is anymore) very influential in this debate for a period of time and I just didn't think the conversation would be complete without bringing him up. What you wrote in your last paragraph is common: "He didn't want to use pronouns, therefore I will dismiss anything and everything he ever wrote/said". (Nevermind that the whole issue was the Canadian government forcing its professors to conform to a specific ideology if they wanted to keep their jobs - in Canada, almost all education is government-run).

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
Apparently the exact language was “certain aspects of traditional masculinity” as “ a particular constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including: anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence.” And yeah I can see where certain aspects of this suck. Anti-femininity is, to me, not very masculine. Masculinity is to stand on its own without being against the other sex. Eschewal against appearance of weakness is also to me not masculine. Humbleness is confidence. Papering over your flaws is super insecure, not confident, and pretty not masculine. I think you made this model of masculinity and then eschewed happy, whole men who don’t fit in that box. Healthygamer is a man, who is happily heterosexually married, who is dedicating his life to uplifting his fellow men. I think that’s a win for all men. Jordan Peterson frankly strikes me as kind of miserable in comparison. Healthygamer doesn’t go on long tweet tirades about pronouns and genders. He just focused on the mission, which is addressing men’s issues.
- DangitBobby 3y ago
  It's a mistake (or intentionally othering) to malign something like "traditional masculinity", which many people identify as a set of qualities about themselves that they enjoy, rather than just pointing out the _specific things_ about "traditional masculinity" that are considered harmful. I like being traditionally masculine, personality, I consider some of the personality traits I associate with it as virtuous and even help guide me in daily life. It's also helpful to enemies of feminism and modern thought on gender roles: now all I have to say is "see, look, they are calling what you are a personality disorder!" and I can convince them to dismiss the entire movement whole cloth.