4 ms·

I don't know if any of the people you mentioned should be considered good male role models. I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simpl

I don't know if any of the people you mentioned should be considered good male role models. I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life. "Look, here is a married fat person or a psychologist/gamer" doesn't quite cut it in my books, especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_. The sad fact is that society as a whole idolizes celebrity and does not celebrate moral ways of living. People who do advocate for moral ways of living are either a) demonized or b) considered "fringe" groups, like the Mennonites. Sure, various organized religions or even community organizations (like the Scouts) have had their scandals - but maybe we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater a little bit. There are many signs that our society is sick and that our culture is in the decline (falling marriage and birth rates, suicide, decline in life expectancy, decline in children's IQ etc...) and there just isn't an easy answer. Now, this is all separate and aside from men's issues, which are absolutely taboo to discuss. Anyone who even attempts to do so gets demonized. Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Sure he is considered "cringe" and his online rants have become more and more unhinged. However, I consider this a _reaction_ to being demonized - originally, Peterson was very articulate, and there were many, many testimonials about how his books improved people's lives for the better. His story actually serves to discourage people who would otherwise speak up and improve the lives of people around them - here is someone whose message improved many lives and look what he became after years of constant vitriol and attacks.

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
> especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_ Wait, what? Where is masculinity in the DSM or ICD? I’m pretty sure being a guy isn’t a mental illness dude. > I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life I think a guy who is dedicating his career on teaching men to celebrate going outside and making dude friends, the very small steps out of isolation and depression, on the platform where they are most likely to waste their lives in (twitch gamer streams) is precisely this kind of guy. He is actively building his life on encouraging other men to live positive, happy, fulfilling lives, one step at a time. > Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Jordan Peterson says he advocates for men but also he advocated for a bunch of bs that had nothing to do with living a healthy life, like rah rah against pronouns. Dude pronouns have nothing to do with you as a man. Get over it.
- ameminator 3y ago
  ASA labels masculinity harmful: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/10/american-psychological-association-traditional-masculinity-harmful/2538520002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/1... In regards to your specific examples, I'm very happy you personally derived value from this influencer/streamer's videos, but I kind of see that as part of the problem - a good male role model shouldn't just be a twitch streamer. Sure, if his content is helping people, promote it (I personally didn't see the value from what little content of theirs that I have watched, but you do you), but maybe your idea of a good role model is different than mine. In regards to Jordan Peterson, he's just a specific example - but he was (I don't think he is anymore) very influential in this debate for a period of time and I just didn't think the conversation would be complete without bringing him up. What you wrote in your last paragraph is common: "He didn't want to use pronouns, therefore I will dismiss anything and everything he ever wrote/said". (Nevermind that the whole issue was the Canadian government forcing its professors to conform to a specific ideology if they wanted to keep their jobs - in Canada, almost all education is government-run).
  - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
    Apparently the exact language was “certain aspects of traditional masculinity” as “ a particular constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including: anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence.” And yeah I can see where certain aspects of this suck. Anti-femininity is, to me, not very masculine. Masculinity is to stand on its own without being against the other sex. Eschewal against appearance of weakness is also to me not masculine. Humbleness is confidence. Papering over your flaws is super insecure, not confident, and pretty not masculine. I think you made this model of masculinity and then eschewed happy, whole men who don’t fit in that box. Healthygamer is a man, who is happily heterosexually married, who is dedicating his life to uplifting his fellow men. I think that’s a win for all men. Jordan Peterson frankly strikes me as kind of miserable in comparison. Healthygamer doesn’t go on long tweet tirades about pronouns and genders. He just focused on the mission, which is addressing men’s issues.
hotpotamus 3y ago
Peterson is indeed quite the victim, but I wonder how much of that is down to his drug addiction and attempted crash treatment? There are many countries on Earth that score higher on the KPIs you listed (though birthrate is lowering most everywhere); perhaps you could look to them as models.
- ameminator 3y ago
  I don't disagree about the addiction in regards to Peterson, but I do think, in part, the social pressure eventually got to him. Either way, I don't consider him as important a voice in this space as he used to be. To your other point, I was thinking in the context of modern Liberal/Western democracies, which have similar issues on those KPIs. Certainly, Asian and certain European countries have far different issues than the ones in North America, which is the context I was focusing on (and which the original article focused on). In any case, I don't necessarily think solutions that work in the Netherlands (a country of ~17 million people) will work across the entire US, especially when the cultures are so different. Either way. it's hard to dispute that there are many positive male role models for young men today, and the issues only get worse from there.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    It occurs to me that I have no idea what anyone means by just about anything anymore. I don't know what culture is supposed to mean. I don't know who people who have problems with culture think can actually fix culture (it's never the government from what I can tell; they tend to be very anti-government). I don't even know what they mean by positive male role models - Bill Gates? Elon Musk? Joe Biden? Donald Trump? Tom Hanks? Dave Chappelle? The Pope? There seem like a near infinite number of possible role models, but I don't know what is supposed to be positive.
polotics 3y ago
Jordan Peterson says things about educating children that are extremely questionable, I recommend you have a go at reading Gabor Maté...

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago

> especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_ Wait, what? Where is masculinity in the DSM or ICD? I’m pretty sure being a guy isn’t a mental illness dude. > I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life I think a guy who is dedicating his career on teaching men to celebrate going outside and making dude friends, the very small steps out of isolation and depression, on the platform where they are most likely to waste their lives in (twitch gamer streams) is precisely this kind of guy. He is actively building his life on encouraging other men to live positive, happy, fulfilling lives, one step at a time. > Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Jordan Peterson says he advocates for men but also he advocated for a bunch of bs that had nothing to do with living a healthy life, like rah rah against pronouns. Dude pronouns have nothing to do with you as a man. Get over it.

ameminator 3y ago
ASA labels masculinity harmful: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/10/american-psychological-association-traditional-masculinity-harmful/2538520002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/1... In regards to your specific examples, I'm very happy you personally derived value from this influencer/streamer's videos, but I kind of see that as part of the problem - a good male role model shouldn't just be a twitch streamer. Sure, if his content is helping people, promote it (I personally didn't see the value from what little content of theirs that I have watched, but you do you), but maybe your idea of a good role model is different than mine. In regards to Jordan Peterson, he's just a specific example - but he was (I don't think he is anymore) very influential in this debate for a period of time and I just didn't think the conversation would be complete without bringing him up. What you wrote in your last paragraph is common: "He didn't want to use pronouns, therefore I will dismiss anything and everything he ever wrote/said". (Nevermind that the whole issue was the Canadian government forcing its professors to conform to a specific ideology if they wanted to keep their jobs - in Canada, almost all education is government-run).
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  Apparently the exact language was “certain aspects of traditional masculinity” as “ a particular constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including: anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence.” And yeah I can see where certain aspects of this suck. Anti-femininity is, to me, not very masculine. Masculinity is to stand on its own without being against the other sex. Eschewal against appearance of weakness is also to me not masculine. Humbleness is confidence. Papering over your flaws is super insecure, not confident, and pretty not masculine. I think you made this model of masculinity and then eschewed happy, whole men who don’t fit in that box. Healthygamer is a man, who is happily heterosexually married, who is dedicating his life to uplifting his fellow men. I think that’s a win for all men. Jordan Peterson frankly strikes me as kind of miserable in comparison. Healthygamer doesn’t go on long tweet tirades about pronouns and genders. He just focused on the mission, which is addressing men’s issues.

hotpotamus 3y ago

Peterson is indeed quite the victim, but I wonder how much of that is down to his drug addiction and attempted crash treatment? There are many countries on Earth that score higher on the KPIs you listed (though birthrate is lowering most everywhere); perhaps you could look to them as models.

ameminator 3y ago
I don't disagree about the addiction in regards to Peterson, but I do think, in part, the social pressure eventually got to him. Either way, I don't consider him as important a voice in this space as he used to be. To your other point, I was thinking in the context of modern Liberal/Western democracies, which have similar issues on those KPIs. Certainly, Asian and certain European countries have far different issues than the ones in North America, which is the context I was focusing on (and which the original article focused on). In any case, I don't necessarily think solutions that work in the Netherlands (a country of ~17 million people) will work across the entire US, especially when the cultures are so different. Either way. it's hard to dispute that there are many positive male role models for young men today, and the issues only get worse from there.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  It occurs to me that I have no idea what anyone means by just about anything anymore. I don't know what culture is supposed to mean. I don't know who people who have problems with culture think can actually fix culture (it's never the government from what I can tell; they tend to be very anti-government). I don't even know what they mean by positive male role models - Bill Gates? Elon Musk? Joe Biden? Donald Trump? Tom Hanks? Dave Chappelle? The Pope? There seem like a near infinite number of possible role models, but I don't know what is supposed to be positive.

polotics 3y ago

Jordan Peterson says things about educating children that are extremely questionable, I recommend you have a go at reading Gabor Maté...