7 ms·

I never really understood this. Can a company go to prison or get the death penalty?

ETH_start 3y ago
It's much more limited than what its critics imagine. It's a legal doctrine to ensure shareholder's rights aren't violated. For example, shareholders having a right to Free Speech means you can't suppress that right when shareholders act through the corporate legal structure to utter speech.
sleigh-bells 3y ago
Corporate personhood means that you can own a piece of a company without being personally liable, because the corporation is its own legal entity. This is why people can start businesses without worrying about being in debt for the rest of their lives if it fails. After all, if the corporation isn't a separate legal entity but just a collection of investors, if the corporation wronged someone, the investors could be sued personally. Maybe the concept is taken too far in terms of political donations and free speech but no corporate personhood would mean that very few people would stick out their necks to start or invest in companies. I don't think a modern economy would even be possible.
- pmoriarty 3y ago
  > no corporate personhood would mean that very few people would stick out their necks to start or invest in companies. What a dystopia that would be.
  - sleigh-bells 3y ago
    -sent from my iPhone
spondyl 3y ago
> Can a company go to prison or get the death penalty? In theory, yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_dissolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_dissolution
sclarisse 3y ago
Corporations have rights because they are owned by humans and those humans have rights. Corporations are just a convenient way to do things together, like conduct a business and own property. Corporate personhood is just a legal abstraction to represent those peoples’ rights, a facade pattern that lets multi-person groups neatly fit in existing laws that might discuss individuals. Corporations like Citizens United can solicit donations from citizens who are fans and produce a pathetic hack-job movie about Hillary Clinton and pay to air it on cable TV, without the FEC saying “no,” because that’s an exercise of the free speech rights of citizens who are working together. Corporations cannot vote because there is no meaningful legal way for people to vote together. Corporations seldom need to be jailed because their crimes are actually committed by humans and you can send the humans to jail.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >Corporations have rights because they are owned by humans and those humans have rights. One does not really follow from another. Washing machines are also "owned by humans" but they don't get rights. >Corporations are just a convenient way to do things together, like conduct a business and own property. Corporate personhood is just a legal abstraction to represent those peoples’ rights, a facade pattern that lets multi-person groups neatly fit in existing laws that might discuss individuals. Doesn't really follow either. Why would it need to be "corporate personhood" and not just a "corporate law"? Why did "personhood" have to enter the picture?
  - GauntletWizard 3y ago
    As the foundation, the cornerstone, the most base part of said "Corporate law". Corporations do not exist without some humans behind them. There are no fully-autonomous corporations in corporate law (despite what ethereum would have you believe) . There are only groups of people. Those people, officers of corporations, impart the personhood - The Corporation is just an embodiment of the collective action of the officers.
    - coldtea 3y ago
HyperSane 3y ago
Arthur Andersen was basically executed.
- GauntletWizard 3y ago
  As was Silicon Valley Bank (though not it's parent corporation, SVB Financial).
ftxbro 3y ago
It's a legal term of art. The term 'natural person' means a human.

It's much more limited than what its critics imagine. It's a legal doctrine to ensure shareholder's rights aren't violated. For example, shareholders having a right to Free Speech means you can't suppress that right when shareholders act through the corporate legal structure to utter speech.

sleigh-bells 3y ago

Corporate personhood means that you can own a piece of a company without being personally liable, because the corporation is its own legal entity. This is why people can start businesses without worrying about being in debt for the rest of their lives if it fails. After all, if the corporation isn't a separate legal entity but just a collection of investors, if the corporation wronged someone, the investors could be sued personally. Maybe the concept is taken too far in terms of political donations and free speech but no corporate personhood would mean that very few people would stick out their necks to start or invest in companies. I don't think a modern economy would even be possible.

pmoriarty 3y ago
> no corporate personhood would mean that very few people would stick out their necks to start or invest in companies. What a dystopia that would be.
- sleigh-bells 3y ago
  -sent from my iPhone

spondyl 3y ago

> Can a company go to prison or get the death penalty? In theory, yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_dissolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_dissolution

sclarisse 3y ago

Corporations have rights because they are owned by humans and those humans have rights. Corporations are just a convenient way to do things together, like conduct a business and own property. Corporate personhood is just a legal abstraction to represent those peoples’ rights, a facade pattern that lets multi-person groups neatly fit in existing laws that might discuss individuals. Corporations like Citizens United can solicit donations from citizens who are fans and produce a pathetic hack-job movie about Hillary Clinton and pay to air it on cable TV, without the FEC saying “no,” because that’s an exercise of the free speech rights of citizens who are working together. Corporations cannot vote because there is no meaningful legal way for people to vote together. Corporations seldom need to be jailed because their crimes are actually committed by humans and you can send the humans to jail.

coldtea 3y ago
>Corporations have rights because they are owned by humans and those humans have rights. One does not really follow from another. Washing machines are also "owned by humans" but they don't get rights. >Corporations are just a convenient way to do things together, like conduct a business and own property. Corporate personhood is just a legal abstraction to represent those peoples’ rights, a facade pattern that lets multi-person groups neatly fit in existing laws that might discuss individuals. Doesn't really follow either. Why would it need to be "corporate personhood" and not just a "corporate law"? Why did "personhood" have to enter the picture?
- GauntletWizard 3y ago
  As the foundation, the cornerstone, the most base part of said "Corporate law". Corporations do not exist without some humans behind them. There are no fully-autonomous corporations in corporate law (despite what ethereum would have you believe) . There are only groups of people. Those people, officers of corporations, impart the personhood - The Corporation is just an embodiment of the collective action of the officers.
  - coldtea 3y ago

HyperSane 3y ago

Arthur Andersen was basically executed.

GauntletWizard 3y ago
As was Silicon Valley Bank (though not it's parent corporation, SVB Financial).

ftxbro 3y ago

It's a legal term of art. The term 'natural person' means a human.