4 ms·

Ya, what is a datum? Is that like a piece of data? I've heard that data is actually supposed to be plural, but that "correct" usage is so far outside of my exp

Ya, what is a datum? Is that like a piece of data? I've heard that data is actually supposed to be plural, but that "correct" usage is so far outside of my experience that it just seems weird and confusing. The one I actually find annoying though is when people use "an" before a word that starts with a (pronounced) h, like "an historic building". It's like, dude, I know you're trying to seem all smart and superior and it isn't working. (Of course, if they said it with a french accent and a silent h that would make more sense.)

gnicholas 4y ago
> The one I actually find annoying though is when people use "an" before a word that starts with a (pronounced) h, like "an historic building". It's like, dude, I know you're trying to seem all smart and superior and it isn't working. (Of course, if they said it with a french accent and a silent h that would make more sense.) This is something that has puzzled me as well. My wife, a historian (not "an historian!") will write this way, and when I've asked her about it she says it's just the proper way. When I looked into the history of it, I concluded that it probably made sense for the British (who say "historian" with a somewhat silent "H"), and probably for early Americans. But for those of us who speak Standard American English, it seems somewhere between unnecessary and stuffy. I wonder how spell checking software deal with this? IIRC it's an exception for words starting with "H" where there emphasis is not on the first syllable (which would result in the "H" being enunciated).
- scubbo 4y ago
  I don't know for sure, but I suspect (in keeping with the fetishization of Latin that motivates many prescriptivist rules, like the injunction to never split an infinitive) that this arises from Ancient Greek[0], wherein there is not a separate letter "H" but rather a modification ("breath", if I remember rightly?) on the vowel. If you (mis)apply this rule to English, "hospital" starts with a vowel. [0] this might be true in Modern Greek as well, I don't know - but English professors don't have such a raging boner for the modern version.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    > like the injunction to never split an infinitive Whoa, whoa, I believe you mean "the injunction never to split an infinitive"! /s
    - scubbo 3y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwPq9nr4r_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwPq9nr4r_4 :D
- bee_rider 4y ago
  How do you pronounce the sentence “This is a historic building” out loud? I don’t pronounce the h. I propose we start writing it as “an ‘istoric” to correct the mismatch.
  - wahern 4y ago
    I say hiss-storic but have always used "an" as the sound still fits the aural pattern rule in my head. It never even occurred to me that people would ever think it was wrong or pretentious to use "an". Though, I was always conscious that "a historic" wasn't wrong, either; yet it still looks and sounds off to me, like someone is deliberately exaggerating a hard h sound.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    I say "historic" with more of an "H" than "hour" (which I pronounce the same as "our").
  - Tagbert 4y ago
    If I may ask, which dialect of English do you speak that the "h" is silent in "historic"?
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      I’m from New England, but not like Boston or Rural Maine, so I don’t have one of those super strong paak tha caa accents. It isn’t always silent, just when preceded by… a vowel I think? I dunno, I’m in public so I don’t want to look like a weirdo trying out test sentences.
tshaddox 4y ago
> The one I actually find annoying though is when people use "an" before a word that starts with a (pronounced) h, like "an historic building". It's like, dude, I know you're trying to seem all smart and superior and it isn't working. Do what now? I wonder what accent you have and which ones you’ve regularly heard spoken. For me, using “an” is essentially mandatory, because there is absolutely no “h” sound at the beginning of “historic” at normal speaking speed. It’s just like “it has been an honor” or “it will take an hour.” The idea that it’s being done deliberately to sound superior is hysterical.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  > I wonder what accent you have and which ones you’ve regularly heard spoken Not parent, but I have the same experience as parent. I am from CA and have lived in PA and DC as well. I also studied linguistics in college and so have a reasonably well-tuned ear for this. It is absolutely not "hysterical" to say that people do this to sound superior. The vast majority of Americans who say "an historic" on a regular basis that I've come across are historians. I have hung out with plenty of other well-educated and pedantic folks (in linguistics, economics, and law), and even they don't do this. YMMV, of course. From where do you hail?
  - martyvis 4y ago
    The first time I realised that Americans drop the "h" in herb I thought it was some hoity-toity affectation, but apparently it's the way you say it! (Aussie here and I think Brits and Kiwis keep the H )
    - gnicholas 4y ago
      We are weird about herbs! Ask me how I say "basil"...
- atq2119 4y ago
  Out of curiosity, does that mean you pronounce "historic" substantially different from "history"? And how about "the historic" as opposed to "a(n) historic"? I'm not a native speaker, but the thought of essentially pronouncing "the 'istory of ..." or "the 'istoric ..." feels a bit comical, but perhaps that's what you do to be consistent?
travisjungroth 4y ago
> Ya, what is a datum? Is that like a piece of data? Yes. It’s like a fact. It’s a thing that’s known. The more common modern equivalent would be “data point”.
- martyvis 4y ago
  Interestingly there seems to be a trend to refer to an individual fact point as a "factoid". I wonder where that originated. EDIT: I just looked it up and a factoid is a manufactured fact, coined by Norman Mailer in 1973. I seems many use it differently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoid#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_term_was_coined_by%2Csimilar_but_not_the_same%22.?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoid#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_te...

gnicholas 4y ago

> The one I actually find annoying though is when people use "an" before a word that starts with a (pronounced) h, like "an historic building". It's like, dude, I know you're trying to seem all smart and superior and it isn't working. (Of course, if they said it with a french accent and a silent h that would make more sense.) This is something that has puzzled me as well. My wife, a historian (not "an historian!") will write this way, and when I've asked her about it she says it's just the proper way. When I looked into the history of it, I concluded that it probably made sense for the British (who say "historian" with a somewhat silent "H"), and probably for early Americans. But for those of us who speak Standard American English, it seems somewhere between unnecessary and stuffy. I wonder how spell checking software deal with this? IIRC it's an exception for words starting with "H" where there emphasis is not on the first syllable (which would result in the "H" being enunciated).

scubbo 4y ago
I don't know for sure, but I suspect (in keeping with the fetishization of Latin that motivates many prescriptivist rules, like the injunction to never split an infinitive) that this arises from Ancient Greek[0], wherein there is not a separate letter "H" but rather a modification ("breath", if I remember rightly?) on the vowel. If you (mis)apply this rule to English, "hospital" starts with a vowel. [0] this might be true in Modern Greek as well, I don't know - but English professors don't have such a raging boner for the modern version.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  > like the injunction to never split an infinitive Whoa, whoa, I believe you mean "the injunction never to split an infinitive"! /s
  - scubbo 3y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwPq9nr4r_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwPq9nr4r_4 :D
bee_rider 4y ago
How do you pronounce the sentence “This is a historic building” out loud? I don’t pronounce the h. I propose we start writing it as “an ‘istoric” to correct the mismatch.
- wahern 4y ago
  I say hiss-storic but have always used "an" as the sound still fits the aural pattern rule in my head. It never even occurred to me that people would ever think it was wrong or pretentious to use "an". Though, I was always conscious that "a historic" wasn't wrong, either; yet it still looks and sounds off to me, like someone is deliberately exaggerating a hard h sound.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  I say "historic" with more of an "H" than "hour" (which I pronounce the same as "our").
- Tagbert 4y ago
  If I may ask, which dialect of English do you speak that the "h" is silent in "historic"?
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    I’m from New England, but not like Boston or Rural Maine, so I don’t have one of those super strong paak tha caa accents. It isn’t always silent, just when preceded by… a vowel I think? I dunno, I’m in public so I don’t want to look like a weirdo trying out test sentences.

tshaddox 4y ago

> The one I actually find annoying though is when people use "an" before a word that starts with a (pronounced) h, like "an historic building". It's like, dude, I know you're trying to seem all smart and superior and it isn't working. Do what now? I wonder what accent you have and which ones you’ve regularly heard spoken. For me, using “an” is essentially mandatory, because there is absolutely no “h” sound at the beginning of “historic” at normal speaking speed. It’s just like “it has been an honor” or “it will take an hour.” The idea that it’s being done deliberately to sound superior is hysterical.

gnicholas 4y ago
> I wonder what accent you have and which ones you’ve regularly heard spoken Not parent, but I have the same experience as parent. I am from CA and have lived in PA and DC as well. I also studied linguistics in college and so have a reasonably well-tuned ear for this. It is absolutely not "hysterical" to say that people do this to sound superior. The vast majority of Americans who say "an historic" on a regular basis that I've come across are historians. I have hung out with plenty of other well-educated and pedantic folks (in linguistics, economics, and law), and even they don't do this. YMMV, of course. From where do you hail?
- martyvis 4y ago
  The first time I realised that Americans drop the "h" in herb I thought it was some hoity-toity affectation, but apparently it's the way you say it! (Aussie here and I think Brits and Kiwis keep the H )
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    We are weird about herbs! Ask me how I say "basil"...
atq2119 4y ago
Out of curiosity, does that mean you pronounce "historic" substantially different from "history"? And how about "the historic" as opposed to "a(n) historic"? I'm not a native speaker, but the thought of essentially pronouncing "the 'istory of ..." or "the 'istoric ..." feels a bit comical, but perhaps that's what you do to be consistent?

travisjungroth 4y ago

> Ya, what is a datum? Is that like a piece of data? Yes. It’s like a fact. It’s a thing that’s known. The more common modern equivalent would be “data point”.

martyvis 4y ago
Interestingly there seems to be a trend to refer to an individual fact point as a "factoid". I wonder where that originated. EDIT: I just looked it up and a factoid is a manufactured fact, coined by Norman Mailer in 1973. I seems many use it differently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoid#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_term_was_coined_by%2Csimilar_but_not_the_same%22.?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoid#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DThe_te...