3 ms·

You don't have to remember that, any IDE will yell at you. I don't find it inconvenient to write PHP or JS syntax, it's completely trivial for a professional.

DonHopkins 3y ago
Don't be such an apologist for terrible careless programming language design, expecting professional programmers to tolerate IDE's "yelling at them" about unforced language design flaws and loaded footguns, using terribly designed languages that were mindlessly thrown together by anti-intellectual amateurs like Rasmus Lerdorf, a self proclaimed "not a real programmer", who says he doesn't even like programming, who doesn't even know the difference between left and right associativity, or even "care about this crap at all". "We have things like protected properties. We have abstract methods. We have all this stuff that your computer science teacher told you you should be using. I don't care about this crap at all." -Rasmus Lerdorf "There are people who actually like programming. I don't understand why they like programming." -Rasmus Lerdorf "I'm not a real programmer. I throw together things until it works then I move on. The real programmers will say "Yeah it works but you're leaking memory everywhere. Perhaps we should fix that." I’ll just restart Apache every 10 requests." -Rasmus Lerdorf "I don't know how to stop it, there was never any intent to write a programming language [...] I have absolutely no idea how to write a programming language, I just kept adding the next logical step on the way." -Rasmus Lerdorf "Using these toolkits is like trying to make a bookshelf out of mashed potatoes." -Jamie Zawinski "I used to think that PHP was the biggest, stinkiest dump that the computer industry had taken on my life in a decade. Then I started needing to do things that could only be accomplished in AppleScript." -Jamie Zawinski "From what I've seen, PHP isn't so much a language as a random collection of arbitrary stuff, a virtual explosion at the keyword and function factory. Bear in mind this is coming from a guy who was weaned on BASIC, a language that gets about as much respect as Rodney Dangerfield. So I am not unfamiliar with the genre." -Jeff Atwood https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-php-singularity/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-php-singularity/ On the other hand, Anders Hejlsberg is a highly skilled, careful, conscientious, experienced professional programming language designer, who actually knows what he's doing, and LIKES programming. And as a professional programmer who's been writing lots of code in many languages since the early 1980's, I much prefer and enjoy using his well designed IDEs and programming languages like Turbo Pascal, Delphi, C#, and TypeScript, to carelessly hacked together fractals of bad design like PHP. PHP: a fractal of bad design: https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ And you're still totally missing the point about the advantages of using one programming language on both the client an server side, sharing libraries, data, APIs, mental energy, and effort. If you were really a professional programmer, you wouldn't be stuck in a rut using and apologizing for PHP, because you would be capable of learning and using many other vastly superior and more powerful programming languages and tools than PHP, and you wouldn't have to waste your time and mental effort rationalizing and making excuses, remembering to avoid so many unforced foot guns and idiotic bad design fractals, and carefully and defensively working around all of its flaws, while getting "yelled at by your IDE" all the time, instead of actually spending your finite time and energy solving problems.
- boringuser2 3y ago
  You're probably a joy to work with, huh? You've got be more flexible than this, come on.
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Why thank you for the complement! Speaking of the Joy of Programming: Bill Joy’s Law: 2^(Year-1984) Million Instructions per Second https://donhopkins.medium.com/bill-joys-law-2-year-1984-million-instructions-per-second-3a8c92165cfe https://donhopkins.medium.com/bill-joys-law-2-year-1984-mill... "The peak computer speed doubles each year and thus is given by a simple function of time. Specifically, S = 2^(Year-1984), in which S is the peak computer speed attained during each year, expressed in MIPS." -Wikipedia, Joy’s law (computing) "C++++-= is the new language that is a little more than C++ and a lot less." -Bill Joy "You can't prove anything about a program written in C or FORTRAN. C is PEEK and POKE with syntactic sugar." -Bill Joy "You can drive a car by looking in the rear view mirror as long as nothing is ahead of you. Not enough software professionals are engaged in forward thinking." -Bill Joy “Java is C++ without the guns, knives, and clubs.” -James Gosling A Conversation with Language Creators: Guido, James, Anders and Larry [video] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19568378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19568378 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csL8DLXGNlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csL8DLXGNlU "My favorite is always the billion dollar mistake of having null in the language. And since JavaScript has both null and undefined, it's the two billion dollar mistake." -Anders Hejlsberg "It is by far the most problematic part of language design. And it's a single value that -- ha ha ha ha -- that if only that wasn't there, imagine all the problems we wouldn't have, right? If type systems were designed that way. And some type systems are, and some type systems are getting there, but boy, trying to retrofit that on top of a type system that has null in the first place is quite an undertaking." -Anders Hejlsberg Andrew Hejlsberg: >Maybe I'll just add, with language design, you know one of the things that's interesting, you look at all of us old geezers sitting up here, and we're proof positive that languages move slowly. >A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that languages move at the same speed as hardware or all of the other technologies that we live with. >But languages are much more like math and much more like the human brain, and they all have evolved slowly. And we're still programming in languages that were invented 50 years ago. All the the principles of functional programming were though of more than 50 years ago. >I do think one of the things that is luckily happening is that, like as Larry says, everyone's borrowing from everyone, languages are becoming more multi-paradigm. >I think it's wrong to talk about "Oh, I only like object oriented programming languages, or I only like imperative programming, or functional programming". >It's important to look at where is the research, and where is the new thinking, and where are new paradigms that are interesting, and then try to incorporate them, but do so tastefully in a sense, and work them into whatever is there already. >And I think we're all learning a lot from functional programming languages these days. I certainly feel like I am. Because a lot of interesting research has happened there. But functional programming is imperfect. And no one writes pure functional programs. I mean, because they don't exist. >It's all about how can you tastefully sneak in mutation in ways that you can better reason about. As opposed to mutation and free threading for everyone. And that's like just a recipe for disaster. "I have a feature that I am sort of jealous of because it's appearing in more and more other languages: pattern matching. And I cannot come up with the right keyword, because all the interesting keywords are already very popular method names for other forms of pattern matching." -Guido van Rossum James Gosling wants to punch the "Real Men Use VI" people. "I think IDEs make language developers lazy." -Larry Wall "IDEs let me get a lot more done a lot faster. I mean I'm not -- I -- I -- I -- I -- I'm really not into proving my manhood. I'm into getting things done." -James Gosling https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19568860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19568860 >DonHopkins on April 4, 2019 | root | parent | next [–] >Anders Hejlsberg also made the point that types are documentation. >Programming language design is user interface design because programmers are programming language users. >"East Coast" MacLisp tended to solve problems at a linguistic level that you could hack with text editors like Emacs, while "West Cost" Interlisp-D tended to solve the same problems with tooling like WYSIWYG DWIM IDEs. >But if you start with a well designed linguistically sound language (Perl, PHP and C++ need not apply), then your IDE doesn't need to waste so much of its energy and complexity and coherence on papering over problems and making up for the deficiencies of the programming language design. (Like debugging mish-mashes of C++ templates and macros in header files!)

DonHopkins 3y ago

Don't be such an apologist for terrible careless programming language design, expecting professional programmers to tolerate IDE's "yelling at them" about unforced language design flaws and loaded footguns, using terribly designed languages that were mindlessly thrown together by anti-intellectual amateurs like Rasmus Lerdorf, a self proclaimed "not a real programmer", who says he doesn't even like programming, who doesn't even know the difference between left and right associativity, or even "care about this crap at all". "We have things like protected properties. We have abstract methods. We have all this stuff that your computer science teacher told you you should be using. I don't care about this crap at all." -Rasmus Lerdorf "There are people who actually like programming. I don't understand why they like programming." -Rasmus Lerdorf "I'm not a real programmer. I throw together things until it works then I move on. The real programmers will say "Yeah it works but you're leaking memory everywhere. Perhaps we should fix that." I’ll just restart Apache every 10 requests." -Rasmus Lerdorf "I don't know how to stop it, there was never any intent to write a programming language [...] I have absolutely no idea how to write a programming language, I just kept adding the next logical step on the way." -Rasmus Lerdorf "Using these toolkits is like trying to make a bookshelf out of mashed potatoes." -Jamie Zawinski "I used to think that PHP was the biggest, stinkiest dump that the computer industry had taken on my life in a decade. Then I started needing to do things that could only be accomplished in AppleScript." -Jamie Zawinski "From what I've seen, PHP isn't so much a language as a random collection of arbitrary stuff, a virtual explosion at the keyword and function factory. Bear in mind this is coming from a guy who was weaned on BASIC, a language that gets about as much respect as Rodney Dangerfield. So I am not unfamiliar with the genre." -Jeff Atwood https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-php-singularity/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-php-singularity/ On the other hand, Anders Hejlsberg is a highly skilled, careful, conscientious, experienced professional programming language designer, who actually knows what he's doing, and LIKES programming. And as a professional programmer who's been writing lots of code in many languages since the early 1980's, I much prefer and enjoy using his well designed IDEs and programming languages like Turbo Pascal, Delphi, C#, and TypeScript, to carelessly hacked together fractals of bad design like PHP. PHP: a fractal of bad design: https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ And you're still totally missing the point about the advantages of using one programming language on both the client an server side, sharing libraries, data, APIs, mental energy, and effort. If you were really a professional programmer, you wouldn't be stuck in a rut using and apologizing for PHP, because you would be capable of learning and using many other vastly superior and more powerful programming languages and tools than PHP, and you wouldn't have to waste your time and mental effort rationalizing and making excuses, remembering to avoid so many unforced foot guns and idiotic bad design fractals, and carefully and defensively working around all of its flaws, while getting "yelled at by your IDE" all the time, instead of actually spending your finite time and energy solving problems.

boringuser2 3y ago
You're probably a joy to work with, huh? You've got be more flexible than this, come on.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  Why thank you for the complement! Speaking of the Joy of Programming: Bill Joy’s Law: 2^(Year-1984) Million Instructions per Second https://donhopkins.medium.com/bill-joys-law-2-year-1984-million-instructions-per-second-3a8c92165cfe https://donhopkins.medium.com/bill-joys-law-2-year-1984-mill... "The peak computer speed doubles each year and thus is given by a simple function of time. Specifically, S = 2^(Year-1984), in which S is the peak computer speed attained during each year, expressed in MIPS." -Wikipedia, Joy’s law (computing) "C++++-= is the new language that is a little more than C++ and a lot less." -Bill Joy "You can't prove anything about a program written in C or FORTRAN. C is PEEK and POKE with syntactic sugar." -Bill Joy "You can drive a car by looking in the rear view mirror as long as nothing is ahead of you. Not enough software professionals are engaged in forward thinking." -Bill Joy “Java is C++ without the guns, knives, and clubs.” -James Gosling A Conversation with Language Creators: Guido, James, Anders and Larry [video] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19568378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19568378 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csL8DLXGNlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csL8DLXGNlU "My favorite is always the billion dollar mistake of having null in the language. And since JavaScript has both null and undefined, it's the two billion dollar mistake." -Anders Hejlsberg "It is by far the most problematic part of language design. And it's a single value that -- ha ha ha ha -- that if only that wasn't there, imagine all the problems we wouldn't have, right? If type systems were designed that way. And some type systems are, and some type systems are getting there, but boy, trying to retrofit that on top of a type system that has null in the first place is quite an undertaking." -Anders Hejlsberg Andrew Hejlsberg: >Maybe I'll just add, with language design, you know one of the things that's interesting, you look at all of us old geezers sitting up here, and we're proof positive that languages move slowly. >A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that languages move at the same speed as hardware or all of the other technologies that we live with. >But languages are much more like math and much more like the human brain, and they all have evolved slowly. And we're still programming in languages that were invented 50 years ago. All the the principles of functional programming were though of more than 50 years ago. >I do think one of the things that is luckily happening is that, like as Larry says, everyone's borrowing from everyone, languages are becoming more multi-paradigm. >I think it's wrong to talk about "Oh, I only like object oriented programming languages, or I only like imperative programming, or functional programming". >It's important to look at where is the research, and where is the new thinking, and where are new paradigms that are interesting, and then try to incorporate them, but do so tastefully in a sense, and work them into whatever is there already. >And I think we're all learning a lot from functional programming languages these days. I certainly feel like I am. Because a lot of interesting research has happened there. But functional programming is imperfect. And no one writes pure functional programs. I mean, because they don't exist. >It's all about how can you tastefully sneak in mutation in ways that you can better reason about. As opposed to mutation and free threading for everyone. And that's like just a recipe for disaster. "I have a feature that I am sort of jealous of because it's appearing in more and more other languages: pattern matching. And I cannot come up with the right keyword, because all the interesting keywords are already very popular method names for other forms of pattern matching." -Guido van Rossum James Gosling wants to punch the "Real Men Use VI" people. "I think IDEs make language developers lazy." -Larry Wall "IDEs let me get a lot more done a lot faster. I mean I'm not -- I -- I -- I -- I -- I'm really not into proving my manhood. I'm into getting things done." -James Gosling https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19568860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19568860 >DonHopkins on April 4, 2019 | root | parent | next [–] >Anders Hejlsberg also made the point that types are documentation. >Programming language design is user interface design because programmers are programming language users. >"East Coast" MacLisp tended to solve problems at a linguistic level that you could hack with text editors like Emacs, while "West Cost" Interlisp-D tended to solve the same problems with tooling like WYSIWYG DWIM IDEs. >But if you start with a well designed linguistically sound language (Perl, PHP and C++ need not apply), then your IDE doesn't need to waste so much of its energy and complexity and coherence on papering over problems and making up for the deficiencies of the programming language design. (Like debugging mish-mashes of C++ templates and macros in header files!)