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you are making a stupid mistake 99% of Westerners make when dealing with Russia. You are projecting your values and rationality on them. I am actually from Ukr

by option 3y ago

you are making a stupid mistake 99% of Westerners make when dealing with Russia. You are projecting your values and rationality on them. I am actually from Ukraine, my family is still there and I now leave in USA. I hate russian gov just as much or more as any normal human being. The Western view is that West and Ukraine are winning because of costs russian people and army are suffering. But another view, closer to ru gov values is that ru gained significant territory while Ukraine lost it since Feb 22. You make think it is stupid and is definitely below their original goal, but it is non-trivial “gain” towards what they care about.

lispm 3y ago
I don't talk about winning. Russia lost almost all political influence in Europe. In exchange for small parts of the Ukraine which are now minefields. > their original goal Their original goal was to conquer the whole of the Ukraine in a few days. What happened was that the parts they have conquered are destroyed. They lost >100k soldiers (dead or wounded). They exposed their military capabilities to be way worse than claimed. They exposed their intelligence service, the military and the government to be even more incompetent than thought. They gave NATO a welcome boost with lots of investments, new members, a common enemy. They lost large parts of the European market for import and export. Russia beamed itself twenty years backwards. How stupid is that?
- option 3y ago
  again, you think it is stupid and I think it is stupid. But from their perspective (and their perspective guides their actions) they are the only ones gaining territory in the world, restoring what they think is historically just for them. Again, projecting “common sense” values on putin’s government failed so many Western politicians.
  - lispm 3y ago
    > But from their perspective (and their perspective guides their actions) they are the only ones gaining territory in the world, restoring what they think is historically just for them. The territory they got is tiny and far from what Putin wanted. Putin destroyed the territory he got, its full of mines, its infrastructure is destroyed and its people were traumatized / driven out. Additionally they lost way much more than they got. Russia is now a political outcast in Europe and its direct influence zone is imploded to now only consisting of very few countries in Europe (Serbia, Hungary, ...). > Again, projecting “common sense” values on putin’s government failed so many Western politicians. This has nothing to do with "common sense". Politicians were bought or tricked into believing that Russia is a reliable partner, while Putin worked on his dictatorship and his imperialistic goals. For Putin a democratic Ukraine, integrated into European/international systems, like the EU or NATO, is a threat to his politics of increasing authoritarianism. People who were not in this influence zone, could easily see the future trajectory of Putin's policy: from Crimea, Syria, using refuges and energy as weapons, silencing his opposition, up to the attack on the Ukraine. Energy is a multi-billion business and a crucial resource for each country. This makes people blind.

by option 3y ago

lispm 3y ago

I don't talk about winning. Russia lost almost all political influence in Europe. In exchange for small parts of the Ukraine which are now minefields. > their original goal Their original goal was to conquer the whole of the Ukraine in a few days. What happened was that the parts they have conquered are destroyed. They lost >100k soldiers (dead or wounded). They exposed their military capabilities to be way worse than claimed. They exposed their intelligence service, the military and the government to be even more incompetent than thought. They gave NATO a welcome boost with lots of investments, new members, a common enemy. They lost large parts of the European market for import and export. Russia beamed itself twenty years backwards. How stupid is that?

option 3y ago
again, you think it is stupid and I think it is stupid. But from their perspective (and their perspective guides their actions) they are the only ones gaining territory in the world, restoring what they think is historically just for them. Again, projecting “common sense” values on putin’s government failed so many Western politicians.
- lispm 3y ago
  > But from their perspective (and their perspective guides their actions) they are the only ones gaining territory in the world, restoring what they think is historically just for them. The territory they got is tiny and far from what Putin wanted. Putin destroyed the territory he got, its full of mines, its infrastructure is destroyed and its people were traumatized / driven out. Additionally they lost way much more than they got. Russia is now a political outcast in Europe and its direct influence zone is imploded to now only consisting of very few countries in Europe (Serbia, Hungary, ...). > Again, projecting “common sense” values on putin’s government failed so many Western politicians. This has nothing to do with "common sense". Politicians were bought or tricked into believing that Russia is a reliable partner, while Putin worked on his dictatorship and his imperialistic goals. For Putin a democratic Ukraine, integrated into European/international systems, like the EU or NATO, is a threat to his politics of increasing authoritarianism. People who were not in this influence zone, could easily see the future trajectory of Putin's policy: from Crimea, Syria, using refuges and energy as weapons, silencing his opposition, up to the attack on the Ukraine. Energy is a multi-billion business and a crucial resource for each country. This makes people blind.