4 ms·

You found the symptom, but prescribed the wrong treatment. > Considering the number of near-poverty retail workers trying to pay off college debt > As it stan

by Alupis 4y ago

You found the symptom, but prescribed the wrong treatment. > Considering the number of near-poverty retail workers trying to pay off college debt > As it stands, the system saddles undergrads with tons of debt and not much to show for it, with socially disastrous results. If you have a degree, and are working retail, and are near-poverty, then you screwed up somewhere. Your degree is objectively useless if this is the only prospects available after graduation - so why did you get that degree? Why didn't you continue into postgrad or change degree paths? Perhaps we should stop offering student loans for useless degrees. Still offer them, but no loans allowed. That would go a long ways towards solving the diagnosed problem. We've spent decades telling everyone they must get a degree to live a successful life - then we puppy-mill them into garbage/completely-useless degree programs, and are surprised when they go back to the same job they held in highschool. Now, we're going to forgive all those poor choices, because we think we did everyone wrong, but we're going to change not one thing to prevent it from happening again. Brilliant.

petsfed 4y ago
I worked retail for 2 years after completing a master's in condensed matter and transistor physics. It just happened to be during a time (~2014) when that degree alone was insufficient in getting me a job, even an entry-level one. I think barring student loans is part of the strategy. Also, focusing on financial literacy prior to high school graduation. If we must have student loans, then colleges need to publish data about graduation rates, job placement rates, etc for a given program, and let lenders determine if loans for that program are a good idea. The whole situation is maddening because there are so many loud voices blaming the literal children who signed for the loans in the first place but (as you say) nobody making any meaningful change to prevent it happening again. I really wish I could go back in time to slap 18-year-old me before I signed on for student loans, but by the time I understood what I was in for, my options were "take on more loans to pay to finish school and get a high-paying job, or take on jobs that will never pay well enough to pay off this debt". The sunk-cost fallacy is supposed to be a fallacy but perversely, as it pertains to student loans, its the inventive to keep going.
- Alupis 4y ago
  Speaking to your situation - I've come to think that degree programs that only "pay off" after a certain level is obtained (masters, phd, credential, license, etc) - then there should not be an option to get out of the program until it's completed. By that I mean eliminating the intermediary and largely useless degrees. You would instead enter into the Condensed Matter Program, which at the end awards a phd, and nothing in between. This sort of program could still offer minors/concentrations and elective/exploratory classes, but the main degree program would only result in the final destination. I could be persuaded this is a terrible idea - but the idea here is to eliminate the ability for someone to footgun themselves after dedicating 6-8 years to a degree that ends up being worthless.
  - petsfed 4y ago
    The problem is that sometimes, you aren't really cut out for the PhD. Or the program burns you out. What then? What if you and your advisor have such severe conflicts that a PhD (or whatever) is not really feasible? What if your advisor just decides one day that they're not going to help any of their students become part of the community of minds, so all you have at the end of all this is a piece of paper and no meaningful contacts to get a job? In my case, I was still clinging to this idea that I could be a college professor, and it wasn't until I got the chance to exit with a masters that I started to accept that I wasn't cut out for it. The problem is not that people end up with "useless" degrees - it's a rare day indeed that I do something even vaguely related to what I went to school for. The problem is that we as a society are addicted to blaming 18-24 years olds for not being perfect fucking fortune tellers when it comes to choosing a profession for the next 20 years, with an absolute minimum of data or tools to collect or evaluate that data. The problem is that we as a society say "you specialized in creating and operating specialized widget 'A', but while you were studying for that, the market shifted and now we only want specialized widget 'B', and the consequences of that market shift are completely and solely your burden to bear". All of this to say that no matter how up-front we are about what the end of these long programs is, we are still, STILL asking people to make the right long-term decision, while insisting that they are also too young to rent a car because they won't make the right long-term decisions. "You're too young to buy alcohol, as you might make the wrong decision which could lead to an outcome that will haunt you for decades. Also, pick your career, right now. Delaying this decision will definitely cost you thousands of dollars, waste years of your life, and disrupt your social development (but picking wrong will have the same impacts, but magnified). It may bar you from certain housing situations. No, we won't help you meaningfully engage with the question, or help you understand the right questions to ask. You're an adult now, no one is going to hold your hand, take responsibility for yourself!".

by Alupis 4y ago

petsfed 4y ago

I worked retail for 2 years after completing a master's in condensed matter and transistor physics. It just happened to be during a time (~2014) when that degree alone was insufficient in getting me a job, even an entry-level one. I think barring student loans is part of the strategy. Also, focusing on financial literacy prior to high school graduation. If we must have student loans, then colleges need to publish data about graduation rates, job placement rates, etc for a given program, and let lenders determine if loans for that program are a good idea. The whole situation is maddening because there are so many loud voices blaming the literal children who signed for the loans in the first place but (as you say) nobody making any meaningful change to prevent it happening again. I really wish I could go back in time to slap 18-year-old me before I signed on for student loans, but by the time I understood what I was in for, my options were "take on more loans to pay to finish school and get a high-paying job, or take on jobs that will never pay well enough to pay off this debt". The sunk-cost fallacy is supposed to be a fallacy but perversely, as it pertains to student loans, its the inventive to keep going.

Alupis 4y ago
Speaking to your situation - I've come to think that degree programs that only "pay off" after a certain level is obtained (masters, phd, credential, license, etc) - then there should not be an option to get out of the program until it's completed. By that I mean eliminating the intermediary and largely useless degrees. You would instead enter into the Condensed Matter Program, which at the end awards a phd, and nothing in between. This sort of program could still offer minors/concentrations and elective/exploratory classes, but the main degree program would only result in the final destination. I could be persuaded this is a terrible idea - but the idea here is to eliminate the ability for someone to footgun themselves after dedicating 6-8 years to a degree that ends up being worthless.
- petsfed 4y ago
  The problem is that sometimes, you aren't really cut out for the PhD. Or the program burns you out. What then? What if you and your advisor have such severe conflicts that a PhD (or whatever) is not really feasible? What if your advisor just decides one day that they're not going to help any of their students become part of the community of minds, so all you have at the end of all this is a piece of paper and no meaningful contacts to get a job? In my case, I was still clinging to this idea that I could be a college professor, and it wasn't until I got the chance to exit with a masters that I started to accept that I wasn't cut out for it. The problem is not that people end up with "useless" degrees - it's a rare day indeed that I do something even vaguely related to what I went to school for. The problem is that we as a society are addicted to blaming 18-24 years olds for not being perfect fucking fortune tellers when it comes to choosing a profession for the next 20 years, with an absolute minimum of data or tools to collect or evaluate that data. The problem is that we as a society say "you specialized in creating and operating specialized widget 'A', but while you were studying for that, the market shifted and now we only want specialized widget 'B', and the consequences of that market shift are completely and solely your burden to bear". All of this to say that no matter how up-front we are about what the end of these long programs is, we are still, STILL asking people to make the right long-term decision, while insisting that they are also too young to rent a car because they won't make the right long-term decisions. "You're too young to buy alcohol, as you might make the wrong decision which could lead to an outcome that will haunt you for decades. Also, pick your career, right now. Delaying this decision will definitely cost you thousands of dollars, waste years of your life, and disrupt your social development (but picking wrong will have the same impacts, but magnified). It may bar you from certain housing situations. No, we won't help you meaningfully engage with the question, or help you understand the right questions to ask. You're an adult now, no one is going to hold your hand, take responsibility for yourself!".