5 ms·

IMHO, right now, tenure is the only edge Academia has in many areas of STEM compared to industrial labs. Other countries have suppressed tenure in the past, De

by nextos 4y ago

IMHO, right now, tenure is the only edge Academia has in many areas of STEM compared to industrial labs. Other countries have suppressed tenure in the past, Denmark comes to mind, and this scared tons of great faculty.

tiedieconderoga 4y ago
Even with tenure, you would need to be extremely passionate about education or research to go into academia in fields like software or mech/chem/EE. The opportunity cost is easily 6 figures/yr, for your entire career. The hours are long, the pay is laughable, the kids are not alright, you must publish or perish...maybe these universities are intentionally selecting for professors who will have a high tolerance for abuse.
- nextos 4y ago
  Note some good US universities pay entry-level FAANG salaries to assistant professors. If you can negotiate a low teaching load, it might be OK in some cases. Nonetheless, I agree with what you say. I'd add there is a ton of nasty politics, bullying, etc. which might be hard to avoid while you are on tenure track chasing tenure.
  - beambot 4y ago
    Please give an example of such a university?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - nextos 4y ago
      According to levels.fyi, a typical entry-level FAANG job (L3 SWE at Google) pays $140k base salary. An assistant prof. position at UCSD I was looking into a few weeks ago was paying $115-145k to identical roles in the department. I know Google has some other benefits, like stock and bonus. Plus, compensation will grow more rapidly. And there are tons of high-paying SWE jobs, whereas good academic positions are scarce. In Academia, it's hard to exceed $200k. Some professors often get $200-300k from consulting. But those I know that earn so much on side gigs are frequently gaming university IP rules.
      - beambot 4y ago
        Google L3 SWE total comp is $193k https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Salesforce&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Salesforce&track=Soft... Base salary is the wrong comparison. As you move up to higher levels and get stacking equity grants, the liquid stock vesting routinely becomes >50% of total comp at FAANG -- i.e. you have to look at total comp. It's not even close to comparable. Also worth noting: as a PhD with assistant prof levels of experience, you'd typically join as L5 (source: myself), which has total comp starting at $365k according to levels.fyi
        ModernMech 4y ago
        But don’t you have to live in the Bay Area? Or does Google pay those L5 salaries for remote? Because $365k is more like $179-$200k where I live. And you have to work 12 months of the year, no?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    The opportunity cost is still likely 100k/yr for the rest of your life, even with the FAANG salary to assistant professors. consider this: You can be a new grad, get hired at Apple, and earn an entry-level salary[0]. Let's say we won't include the bonus and you get 130k/yr. You colleague is a new grad and goes to a PhD program at Duke University[1] where they earn 33k/yr. In your first year, your PhD program colleague earns 97k less than you. From years 1-3, your average base pay will be 138k, and your PhD colleague earns the same wage. They now earn 105k less than you for each of those years. Your colleague is in the hole over 400k opportunity wise. In your 4th and 5th year, you can expect to earn 141k on average. Your colleague, still making 33k/yr, is now making 108k/yr less than you. At the end of 5 years, your colleague has completed their PhD and is in the hole over 600k in opportunity cost. Now your colleague gets an associate professorship position. This assumes your colleague is extremely lucky and does not go into a post-doc. They earn 115k [2] base at NYU. In your 6th year at apple you're still making that 141k. You're still out-earning them by 26k. Your colleague is on the tenure track, which can take 6 or 7 years. [3]. All that time you're getting more and more YoE, while their pay band stays relatively the same during this time. Let's say the opportunity cost is 26k over 6 years, so an additional 156k to their over 600k. At full professorship at NYU, your colleague is earning 162k [4] after 5 years PhD + 6 years tenure track. You, an Apple engineer (probably senior at this point), with 11 YoE are earning 165k/yr [5] at this point. Your colleague has cost themselves 750k in opportunity cost, and you're still earning a bit more than them! A full professor may never catch up to the opportunity cost of academic track, salary wise. tl;dr: EVEN IF you get paid 160k base as a full professor, your years of phd + tenure track associate professor salary will mean you will likely never, ever catch up with someone who new-graded at a FAANG and never left that circle. 0. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Software-Engineer-New-Grad-Salaries-E1138_D_KO6,32.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Software-Engineer-New... 1. https://gradschool.duke.edu/financial-support/tuition-fees-and-phd-stipends/ https://gradschool.duke.edu/financial-support/tuition-fees-a... 2. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NYU-New-York-University-Assistant-Professor-of-Computer-Science-Salaries-E2917_D_KO24,63.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NYU-New-York-University-Ass... 3. https://www.beyondphdcoaching.com/academic-career/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-tenure/ https://www.beyondphdcoaching.com/academic-career/how-long-d... 4. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NYU-New-York-University-Professor-Salaries-E2917_D_KO24,33.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NYU-New-York-University-Pro... 5. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Senior-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E1138_D_KO6,30.htm?selectedLocationString=N%2C1&filter.jobTitleExact=Senior+Software+Engineer&employerId=1138&experienceLevel=TEN_TO_FOURTEEN https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Senior-Software-Engin...
  - uberman 4y ago
    Let's say that was true and I am calling BS on it as I happen to consult in higher ED at an Ivy. Would it be a problem if it was true that someone with a phd and 3 or 4 years of additional research experience were to make the same salary as a newb undergrad? Note, where I consult, new 4 year grads get offers that often exceed the salary of their tenured professors.
  - robwwilliams 4y ago
    I doubt that. What does UCLA pay entering STEM AI faculty? FAANG salaries for MS in CS at or above $300k. Starting salary in genomics, stats, ML and AI in a very well funded medical college with PhD and 4-year postdoc is less than half that.
    - arghnoname 4y ago
      FAANG don't typically pay someone with just a masters in CS $300K fresh out of school, perhaps excluding someone in a very in demand niche. I didn't get that from my offers and I had a PhD from a good school. Maybe I just suck, but I compared notes with my peers, so we must all suck. From what my friends got in academia and industry, I'd say at entry-level, professors at good schools are competitive with FAANG salaries, particularly when the cost of living is lower where the university is located. The raises and promos lead industry people to outpace them though because of the lower ceiling in academia.
  - ls612 4y ago
    Assistant professors (tenure track) in decent public business schools start at $300k salary. And this is in the Midwest. And I know that the top private business schools pay more, just that it isn’t public information like it is at the public universities. Now obviously those people would likely be paid higher salaries in the private sector (even CoL adjusted) but the economics of it ensures that pay for professors of fields in demand in the private sector will be at least somewhat decent.
    - anvuong 4y ago
      What are those universities? In Pacific Northwest it's only 100-150k for Assistant Prof from what I've seen.
      - ls612 4y ago
        It’s specifically for profs in the business school, who are in very high demand from the private sector. For many other departments those figures are correct.
- kpw94 4y ago
  Since Texas is the topic: university salaries are public and used to be published in a Texas Tribune. A visiting professor at a Texas university, with probably no intention of tenure based on his career, was paid $340k/y back in the 2010s: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-creator-of-C++-Bjarne-Stroustrups-net-financial-worth?top_ans=13272443 https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-creator-of-C++-Bjarne-Stro... Of course he's not a nobody, but if Texas universities pay that kind of money to superstar professors, for small stints, this could attract people from industry that in the end are much more up to date on the industry's state of the art (vs the research state of the art). The top 5 other professors (but probably many tenured) were making in the ~$200k range at that time too. In that part of the country, it's huge. Ultimately tenure has a price. if there's no tenure, higher salaries would be offered. Now the impact on student's tuition could be interesting, but if most of it goes to administrative staff anyways, who knows?
  - uberman 4y ago
    You might be able to cherry pick some outliers for sure. Just like at any company or institute. I can tell you from personal experience though that the going rate for a new hire full STEM professor with tenure at a prior institution was 95k at UT Austin in that time period.
  - nostrademons 4y ago
    ~$200K is about starting comp for fresh graduates at a FAANG. When a fresh college grad can make more than a tenured professor, it's awfully hard to convince people to take that first rung into academia, where you're getting paid a lot less than $200K.
  - stusmall 4y ago
    > Of course he's not a nobody That's an understatement. He's one of the most famous names in computer science alive today. You can't look at the top 1% of 1% to make statements about the whole industry. $340k/year is a real TC range for no-name ICs at a FAANG these days. The numbers you are posting are making the opposite point you are trying to make.
  - quantified 4y ago
bryanrasmussen 4y ago
>Other countries have suppressed tenure in the past, Denmark comes to mind I could be wrong but I don't think it's correct https://employment.ku.dk/tenure-track/tenure-track-at-ucph/ https://employment.ku.dk/tenure-track/tenure-track-at-ucph/ any links on that?
- nextos 4y ago
  They call it like that, but you can be fired anytime, even if you are a full professor.
  - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
    Ok I did some more research and I guess you're right although I haven't found anything exactly authoritative about what exactly it means http://www.informationsordbogen.dk/concept_comment.php?cid=6986 http://www.informationsordbogen.dk/concept_comment.php?cid=6... https://www.forskerforum.dk/aktuelt/2022/august/tysk-forsker-roser-det-danske-system-selvom-det-ikke-er-rigtig-tenure https://www.forskerforum.dk/aktuelt/2022/august/tysk-forsker... however in Denmark there is more protection in general against getting fired than in the U.S although not as much as other European countries, also a period when you've been let go you have severance, I think most I.T jobs are 3 months although I have seen some situations where it's 4 months. Maybe it's longer for academia.
alsodumb 4y ago
In Engineering (especially robotics and ML/AI), it’s definitely not the tenure that’s making people apply for assistant professor roles. Almost everyone I met did it only because they want the freedom to pick the research direction and work on challenging problems. A few genuinely like teaching, but that’s about it.
haweemwho 4y ago
> IMHO, right now, tenure is the only edge Academia has in many areas of STEM compared to industrial labs. This. Even with tenure in place, I'd never go to academia. So much politics, worry about grants, immobility in what to do research in, low compensation compared to industry jobs, so much frustration, frustrated and bitter colleagues... It's terrible. I love working with colleagues that all have the best interest of the workplace in mind. I find that in industry a lot. In academia it's really rare.
caddemon 4y ago
The main edge is freedom in research topic (at least to the extent of what granting agencies are willing to fund), and freedom in publishing your ideas and results as you see fit. Tenure is a ridiculous gamble right now. Getting a tenure track position at a major research university in most fields if you do everything right is something like a 10% chance after multiple years of dreadfully paid and generally poorly treated postdoc. Then it's only 50/50 or so whether you get fired after ~5 years. You don't know if you will be tenured until you're pushing 40, and in bio you'd be lucky to know by then. The EV of going for tenure these days is fucking awful. Besides, almost anyone capable of getting tenure in a STEM department at UT is super employable in the corresponding industry and definitely does not need tenure to protect their job like a random grade school teacher. The only place it's helpful is if you start really questioning people or pushing buttons, but that just goes back to intellectual freedom being the real perk, not the job security. Might be different in something like ML where DeepMind and OpenAI can systematically take talent, but seriously the job market to get tenure track professorship currently is brutally competitive, to the point it is straining the whole academic system.
- nextos 4y ago
  > The main edge is freedom in research topic The way I see things, freedom is a consequence of tenure. Or at least it was intended to be like that. If you want to pursue ground-breaking ideas, you might not publish for a while. If you are tenured this doesn't matter much. If you aren't, it's like playing Russian roulette with your career. > Tenure is a ridiculous gamble right now In some systems, you are tenured right from the beginning. For example, in British Academia, most assistant professor positions are permanent and it's not impossible to get one straight after your PhD. However, pay and funding is much lower.

by nextos 4y ago

tiedieconderoga 4y ago

Even with tenure, you would need to be extremely passionate about education or research to go into academia in fields like software or mech/chem/EE. The opportunity cost is easily 6 figures/yr, for your entire career. The hours are long, the pay is laughable, the kids are not alright, you must publish or perish...maybe these universities are intentionally selecting for professors who will have a high tolerance for abuse.

nextos 4y ago
Note some good US universities pay entry-level FAANG salaries to assistant professors. If you can negotiate a low teaching load, it might be OK in some cases. Nonetheless, I agree with what you say. I'd add there is a ton of nasty politics, bullying, etc. which might be hard to avoid while you are on tenure track chasing tenure.
- beambot 4y ago
  Please give an example of such a university?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nextos 4y ago
    According to levels.fyi, a typical entry-level FAANG job (L3 SWE at Google) pays $140k base salary. An assistant prof. position at UCSD I was looking into a few weeks ago was paying $115-145k to identical roles in the department. I know Google has some other benefits, like stock and bonus. Plus, compensation will grow more rapidly. And there are tons of high-paying SWE jobs, whereas good academic positions are scarce. In Academia, it's hard to exceed $200k. Some professors often get $200-300k from consulting. But those I know that earn so much on side gigs are frequently gaming university IP rules.
    - beambot 4y ago
      Google L3 SWE total comp is $193k https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Salesforce&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Salesforce&track=Soft... Base salary is the wrong comparison. As you move up to higher levels and get stacking equity grants, the liquid stock vesting routinely becomes >50% of total comp at FAANG -- i.e. you have to look at total comp. It's not even close to comparable. Also worth noting: as a PhD with assistant prof levels of experience, you'd typically join as L5 (source: myself), which has total comp starting at $365k according to levels.fyi
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        But don’t you have to live in the Bay Area? Or does Google pay those L5 salaries for remote? Because $365k is more like $179-$200k where I live. And you have to work 12 months of the year, no?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  The opportunity cost is still likely 100k/yr for the rest of your life, even with the FAANG salary to assistant professors. consider this: You can be a new grad, get hired at Apple, and earn an entry-level salary[0]. Let's say we won't include the bonus and you get 130k/yr. You colleague is a new grad and goes to a PhD program at Duke University[1] where they earn 33k/yr. In your first year, your PhD program colleague earns 97k less than you. From years 1-3, your average base pay will be 138k, and your PhD colleague earns the same wage. They now earn 105k less than you for each of those years. Your colleague is in the hole over 400k opportunity wise. In your 4th and 5th year, you can expect to earn 141k on average. Your colleague, still making 33k/yr, is now making 108k/yr less than you. At the end of 5 years, your colleague has completed their PhD and is in the hole over 600k in opportunity cost. Now your colleague gets an associate professorship position. This assumes your colleague is extremely lucky and does not go into a post-doc. They earn 115k [2] base at NYU. In your 6th year at apple you're still making that 141k. You're still out-earning them by 26k. Your colleague is on the tenure track, which can take 6 or 7 years. [3]. All that time you're getting more and more YoE, while their pay band stays relatively the same during this time. Let's say the opportunity cost is 26k over 6 years, so an additional 156k to their over 600k. At full professorship at NYU, your colleague is earning 162k [4] after 5 years PhD + 6 years tenure track. You, an Apple engineer (probably senior at this point), with 11 YoE are earning 165k/yr [5] at this point. Your colleague has cost themselves 750k in opportunity cost, and you're still earning a bit more than them! A full professor may never catch up to the opportunity cost of academic track, salary wise. tl;dr: EVEN IF you get paid 160k base as a full professor, your years of phd + tenure track associate professor salary will mean you will likely never, ever catch up with someone who new-graded at a FAANG and never left that circle. 0. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Software-Engineer-New-Grad-Salaries-E1138_D_KO6,32.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Software-Engineer-New... 1. https://gradschool.duke.edu/financial-support/tuition-fees-and-phd-stipends/ https://gradschool.duke.edu/financial-support/tuition-fees-a... 2. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NYU-New-York-University-Assistant-Professor-of-Computer-Science-Salaries-E2917_D_KO24,63.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NYU-New-York-University-Ass... 3. https://www.beyondphdcoaching.com/academic-career/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-tenure/ https://www.beyondphdcoaching.com/academic-career/how-long-d... 4. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NYU-New-York-University-Professor-Salaries-E2917_D_KO24,33.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NYU-New-York-University-Pro... 5. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Senior-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E1138_D_KO6,30.htm?selectedLocationString=N%2C1&filter.jobTitleExact=Senior+Software+Engineer&employerId=1138&experienceLevel=TEN_TO_FOURTEEN https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Senior-Software-Engin...
- uberman 4y ago
  Let's say that was true and I am calling BS on it as I happen to consult in higher ED at an Ivy. Would it be a problem if it was true that someone with a phd and 3 or 4 years of additional research experience were to make the same salary as a newb undergrad? Note, where I consult, new 4 year grads get offers that often exceed the salary of their tenured professors.
- robwwilliams 4y ago
  I doubt that. What does UCLA pay entering STEM AI faculty? FAANG salaries for MS in CS at or above $300k. Starting salary in genomics, stats, ML and AI in a very well funded medical college with PhD and 4-year postdoc is less than half that.
  - arghnoname 4y ago
    FAANG don't typically pay someone with just a masters in CS $300K fresh out of school, perhaps excluding someone in a very in demand niche. I didn't get that from my offers and I had a PhD from a good school. Maybe I just suck, but I compared notes with my peers, so we must all suck. From what my friends got in academia and industry, I'd say at entry-level, professors at good schools are competitive with FAANG salaries, particularly when the cost of living is lower where the university is located. The raises and promos lead industry people to outpace them though because of the lower ceiling in academia.
- ls612 4y ago
  Assistant professors (tenure track) in decent public business schools start at $300k salary. And this is in the Midwest. And I know that the top private business schools pay more, just that it isn’t public information like it is at the public universities. Now obviously those people would likely be paid higher salaries in the private sector (even CoL adjusted) but the economics of it ensures that pay for professors of fields in demand in the private sector will be at least somewhat decent.
  - anvuong 4y ago
    What are those universities? In Pacific Northwest it's only 100-150k for Assistant Prof from what I've seen.
    - ls612 4y ago
      It’s specifically for profs in the business school, who are in very high demand from the private sector. For many other departments those figures are correct.
kpw94 4y ago
Since Texas is the topic: university salaries are public and used to be published in a Texas Tribune. A visiting professor at a Texas university, with probably no intention of tenure based on his career, was paid $340k/y back in the 2010s: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-creator-of-C++-Bjarne-Stroustrups-net-financial-worth?top_ans=13272443 https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-creator-of-C++-Bjarne-Stro... Of course he's not a nobody, but if Texas universities pay that kind of money to superstar professors, for small stints, this could attract people from industry that in the end are much more up to date on the industry's state of the art (vs the research state of the art). The top 5 other professors (but probably many tenured) were making in the ~$200k range at that time too. In that part of the country, it's huge. Ultimately tenure has a price. if there's no tenure, higher salaries would be offered. Now the impact on student's tuition could be interesting, but if most of it goes to administrative staff anyways, who knows?
- uberman 4y ago
  You might be able to cherry pick some outliers for sure. Just like at any company or institute. I can tell you from personal experience though that the going rate for a new hire full STEM professor with tenure at a prior institution was 95k at UT Austin in that time period.
- nostrademons 4y ago
  ~$200K is about starting comp for fresh graduates at a FAANG. When a fresh college grad can make more than a tenured professor, it's awfully hard to convince people to take that first rung into academia, where you're getting paid a lot less than $200K.
- stusmall 4y ago
  > Of course he's not a nobody That's an understatement. He's one of the most famous names in computer science alive today. You can't look at the top 1% of 1% to make statements about the whole industry. $340k/year is a real TC range for no-name ICs at a FAANG these days. The numbers you are posting are making the opposite point you are trying to make.
- quantified 4y ago

bryanrasmussen 4y ago

>Other countries have suppressed tenure in the past, Denmark comes to mind I could be wrong but I don't think it's correct https://employment.ku.dk/tenure-track/tenure-track-at-ucph/ https://employment.ku.dk/tenure-track/tenure-track-at-ucph/ any links on that?

nextos 4y ago
They call it like that, but you can be fired anytime, even if you are a full professor.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  Ok I did some more research and I guess you're right although I haven't found anything exactly authoritative about what exactly it means http://www.informationsordbogen.dk/concept_comment.php?cid=6986 http://www.informationsordbogen.dk/concept_comment.php?cid=6... https://www.forskerforum.dk/aktuelt/2022/august/tysk-forsker-roser-det-danske-system-selvom-det-ikke-er-rigtig-tenure https://www.forskerforum.dk/aktuelt/2022/august/tysk-forsker... however in Denmark there is more protection in general against getting fired than in the U.S although not as much as other European countries, also a period when you've been let go you have severance, I think most I.T jobs are 3 months although I have seen some situations where it's 4 months. Maybe it's longer for academia.

alsodumb 4y ago

In Engineering (especially robotics and ML/AI), it’s definitely not the tenure that’s making people apply for assistant professor roles. Almost everyone I met did it only because they want the freedom to pick the research direction and work on challenging problems. A few genuinely like teaching, but that’s about it.

haweemwho 4y ago

> IMHO, right now, tenure is the only edge Academia has in many areas of STEM compared to industrial labs. This. Even with tenure in place, I'd never go to academia. So much politics, worry about grants, immobility in what to do research in, low compensation compared to industry jobs, so much frustration, frustrated and bitter colleagues... It's terrible. I love working with colleagues that all have the best interest of the workplace in mind. I find that in industry a lot. In academia it's really rare.

caddemon 4y ago

The main edge is freedom in research topic (at least to the extent of what granting agencies are willing to fund), and freedom in publishing your ideas and results as you see fit. Tenure is a ridiculous gamble right now. Getting a tenure track position at a major research university in most fields if you do everything right is something like a 10% chance after multiple years of dreadfully paid and generally poorly treated postdoc. Then it's only 50/50 or so whether you get fired after ~5 years. You don't know if you will be tenured until you're pushing 40, and in bio you'd be lucky to know by then. The EV of going for tenure these days is fucking awful. Besides, almost anyone capable of getting tenure in a STEM department at UT is super employable in the corresponding industry and definitely does not need tenure to protect their job like a random grade school teacher. The only place it's helpful is if you start really questioning people or pushing buttons, but that just goes back to intellectual freedom being the real perk, not the job security. Might be different in something like ML where DeepMind and OpenAI can systematically take talent, but seriously the job market to get tenure track professorship currently is brutally competitive, to the point it is straining the whole academic system.

nextos 4y ago
> The main edge is freedom in research topic The way I see things, freedom is a consequence of tenure. Or at least it was intended to be like that. If you want to pursue ground-breaking ideas, you might not publish for a while. If you are tenured this doesn't matter much. If you aren't, it's like playing Russian roulette with your career. > Tenure is a ridiculous gamble right now In some systems, you are tenured right from the beginning. For example, in British Academia, most assistant professor positions are permanent and it's not impossible to get one straight after your PhD. However, pay and funding is much lower.