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Not college, but my wife is wrapping up her teaching certification soon. We have both considered moving to Florida (we both have family that live there), but t

Not college, but my wife is wrapping up her teaching certification soon. We have both considered moving to Florida (we both have family that live there), but there is no chance in hell that we are moving to Florida and teaching; the infamous "Don't Say Gay" bill is so broad and idiotic (and she would be teaching biology), that Florida is a complete non-starter for us since neither of us really have any desire to be sued because some parent feels she might be teaching some "woke" agenda. I have no idea if my wife would be a good teacher, but I do know that if I were a teacher and I had options to teach elsewhere, I would not teach in Florida. Similarly, professors are kind of absurdly underpaid, at least in STEM. Generally if you're qualified to be a professor in STEM, you're qualified for a nice yuppie job paying twice as much; one of the very few appealing things that professorships have is tenure.

nme01 4y ago
I’m not from US but I’m curious what is the situation in other states? Are there situations like that occurring elsewhere (even if the bias is in the opposite political direction e.g. in California or somewhere) or is Florida a “lonely island” here with regard to free speech limitations on universities?
- thebooktocome 4y ago
  It’s getting pretty common in conservative states. Just this year there were (in various states) hundreds of laws passed against public expressions of LGBTQ+ identities, including some that affect public sector employees (e.g., state university professors).
- csa 4y ago
  1. Imho, Florida is just leading the way for other states (many of which are actually more conservative than Florida). One reason Florida might be taking the lead is because the current governor is making a run for president in 2024, and this is establishing his bona fides. Florida is definitely not a “lonely island”. 2. Liberal states seem to be going extreme in other directions. Some examples are how “equity” policies (in general, not a bad idea) are implemented. Gifted programs, ap programs, accelerated programs and the like are being cut because the participants don’t have the proper racial ratios (Asians and Whites tend to be statistically over-represented). Equity is not an unreasonable policy to pursue, but doing it by holding back others is regressive, imho. Holding back high achievers also addresses the problem at the wrong level — that is, the origins of academic inequality typically happen at a much earlier age. Interestingly, in most states (blue, red, or purple), teachers are almost forced to teach to the bottom 25-30% of each class, since schools are evaluated by how many people meet the minimum standards rather than by overall or high level achievement.
ghufran_syed 4y ago
Can you help me understand what aspect of teaching biology in grades k through 3 would be against the provisions of the law in Florida? I studied biology to age 16 in England (“o-levels”) and don’t recall anything even up to that age that would be covered under this law? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Parental_Rights_in_Education_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Parental_Rights_in_E...
- tombert 4y ago
  Because it's not just grades K through 3 anymore [1]. The law is pretty broad and moreover the legal costs default to the defendant. Even if my wife didn't do something that was officially illegal, we'd be stuck counter-suing to reclaim legal costs. [1] https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-education-board-approves-expanding-parental-rights-law-through-12th-grade https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-education-board-ap...
  - ghufran_syed 4y ago
    Thanks for the info - but this implies that following the state curriculum would be a pretty easy defence, wouldn't it? So if a teacher wanted to teach about "sexual orientation and gender identity", even outside of the "existing state standards", they could still do so as part of "reproductive health instruction that students can choose not to take" [1] [2]. The closest reference I can find for the legal stuff is here: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/... Everything in that text talks about the parent taking legal action against the school district, not the teacher [3] - same as when citizens sue "the cops", they are usually suing the city that runs that police department, not the individual police officer. So if a teacher is following the rules laid down by their employer (which one assumes would be in accordance with state law), they would presumably be provided counsel by their employer in order to ensure that the employer can actually mount a legal defense? So it sounds no different to being a state employee in a lot of places. Or am I still missing something? [1] "The rule change would ban lessons on sexual orientation and gender identity through 12th grade unless required by existing state standards or as part of reproductive health instruction that students can choose not to take" [2] "Educators have said they don’t expect a major change in lesson plans given that teachers adhere to state education curriculums" [3] "If a concern is not resolved by the school district, a 129 parent may: ... (I) [elided] (II) Bring an action against the school district to obtain a declaratory judgment that the school district procedure or practice violates this paragraph and seek injunctive relief. A court may award damages and shall award reasonable attorney fees and court costs to a parent who receives declaratory or injunctive relief. "
stainablesteel 4y ago
you should definitely move to a state that suits your political background, its fair to say you might not like florida. but that "don't say gay bill" is really just a "don't teach sex ed til 4th grade" bill. i'm understanding of people who don't like it nonetheless but there's other place for you to go, there's plenty of blue states and big cities that support left-wing agendas over right-wing ones, just go there instead, no?
- frob 4y ago
  It's not just through 3rd grade anymore. It's all the way through the end of high school. https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-education-board-approves-expanding-parental-rights-law-through-12th-grade https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-education-board-ap...
- tombert 4y ago
  I think this is a pretty stupid argument; I think this is an idiotic law, and I would even if I did agree with the bizarre LGBT grooming conspiracies. It’s poorly worded, likely to be abused, and also not just K-3 anymore like people keep incorrectly asserting. Even if I did think that there was some grooming conspiracy, I wouldn’t want to teach in Florida because I don’t want to be sued by some parent who has a relatively risk-free way to get free money by claiming I mentioned some LGBT agenda. Also, you understand that “move to a blue city” only gets you so far right? This will (and to some extent already has) lead to a shortage of decent teachers in Florida, because a lot of teachers who can move to a more hospitable state have (or will).
  - stainablesteel 4y ago
    that's not exactly steel manning what i said, a lot of the modern lgbt craze is crossing religious boundaries, i don't want my kids to be taught anyone else's religion, i'm supposed to have this right granted to me and my kids under law people who like what's going on in florida will move to florida, its a win-win
    - tombert 4y ago

nme01 4y ago

I’m not from US but I’m curious what is the situation in other states? Are there situations like that occurring elsewhere (even if the bias is in the opposite political direction e.g. in California or somewhere) or is Florida a “lonely island” here with regard to free speech limitations on universities?

thebooktocome 4y ago
It’s getting pretty common in conservative states. Just this year there were (in various states) hundreds of laws passed against public expressions of LGBTQ+ identities, including some that affect public sector employees (e.g., state university professors).
csa 4y ago
1. Imho, Florida is just leading the way for other states (many of which are actually more conservative than Florida). One reason Florida might be taking the lead is because the current governor is making a run for president in 2024, and this is establishing his bona fides. Florida is definitely not a “lonely island”. 2. Liberal states seem to be going extreme in other directions. Some examples are how “equity” policies (in general, not a bad idea) are implemented. Gifted programs, ap programs, accelerated programs and the like are being cut because the participants don’t have the proper racial ratios (Asians and Whites tend to be statistically over-represented). Equity is not an unreasonable policy to pursue, but doing it by holding back others is regressive, imho. Holding back high achievers also addresses the problem at the wrong level — that is, the origins of academic inequality typically happen at a much earlier age. Interestingly, in most states (blue, red, or purple), teachers are almost forced to teach to the bottom 25-30% of each class, since schools are evaluated by how many people meet the minimum standards rather than by overall or high level achievement.

ghufran_syed 4y ago

Can you help me understand what aspect of teaching biology in grades k through 3 would be against the provisions of the law in Florida? I studied biology to age 16 in England (“o-levels”) and don’t recall anything even up to that age that would be covered under this law? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Parental_Rights_in_Education_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Parental_Rights_in_E...

tombert 4y ago
Because it's not just grades K through 3 anymore [1]. The law is pretty broad and moreover the legal costs default to the defendant. Even if my wife didn't do something that was officially illegal, we'd be stuck counter-suing to reclaim legal costs. [1] https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-education-board-approves-expanding-parental-rights-law-through-12th-grade https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-education-board-ap...
- ghufran_syed 4y ago
  Thanks for the info - but this implies that following the state curriculum would be a pretty easy defence, wouldn't it? So if a teacher wanted to teach about "sexual orientation and gender identity", even outside of the "existing state standards", they could still do so as part of "reproductive health instruction that students can choose not to take" [1] [2]. The closest reference I can find for the legal stuff is here: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/... Everything in that text talks about the parent taking legal action against the school district, not the teacher [3] - same as when citizens sue "the cops", they are usually suing the city that runs that police department, not the individual police officer. So if a teacher is following the rules laid down by their employer (which one assumes would be in accordance with state law), they would presumably be provided counsel by their employer in order to ensure that the employer can actually mount a legal defense? So it sounds no different to being a state employee in a lot of places. Or am I still missing something? [1] "The rule change would ban lessons on sexual orientation and gender identity through 12th grade unless required by existing state standards or as part of reproductive health instruction that students can choose not to take" [2] "Educators have said they don’t expect a major change in lesson plans given that teachers adhere to state education curriculums" [3] "If a concern is not resolved by the school district, a 129 parent may: ... (I) [elided] (II) Bring an action against the school district to obtain a declaratory judgment that the school district procedure or practice violates this paragraph and seek injunctive relief. A court may award damages and shall award reasonable attorney fees and court costs to a parent who receives declaratory or injunctive relief. "

stainablesteel 4y ago

you should definitely move to a state that suits your political background, its fair to say you might not like florida. but that "don't say gay bill" is really just a "don't teach sex ed til 4th grade" bill. i'm understanding of people who don't like it nonetheless but there's other place for you to go, there's plenty of blue states and big cities that support left-wing agendas over right-wing ones, just go there instead, no?

frob 4y ago
It's not just through 3rd grade anymore. It's all the way through the end of high school. https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-education-board-approves-expanding-parental-rights-law-through-12th-grade https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/florida-education-board-ap...
tombert 4y ago
I think this is a pretty stupid argument; I think this is an idiotic law, and I would even if I did agree with the bizarre LGBT grooming conspiracies. It’s poorly worded, likely to be abused, and also not just K-3 anymore like people keep incorrectly asserting. Even if I did think that there was some grooming conspiracy, I wouldn’t want to teach in Florida because I don’t want to be sued by some parent who has a relatively risk-free way to get free money by claiming I mentioned some LGBT agenda. Also, you understand that “move to a blue city” only gets you so far right? This will (and to some extent already has) lead to a shortage of decent teachers in Florida, because a lot of teachers who can move to a more hospitable state have (or will).
- stainablesteel 4y ago
  that's not exactly steel manning what i said, a lot of the modern lgbt craze is crossing religious boundaries, i don't want my kids to be taught anyone else's religion, i'm supposed to have this right granted to me and my kids under law people who like what's going on in florida will move to florida, its a win-win
  - tombert 4y ago