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On one hand this effort sounds like a good way to generate some interesting concepts. On the other hand, as a long-time resident of a rural, wildfire-prone area

On one hand this effort sounds like a good way to generate some interesting concepts. On the other hand, as a long-time resident of a rural, wildfire-prone area, it's also important to educate the public and politicians that there is a large body of proven land management best practices that can already significantly improve prevention, control and mitigation. While we can always do better, we often aren't sufficiently utilizing the tools and techniques we already have. The issues are more often political, economic and systemic than they are not knowing effective ways to further reduce risks and harm. Things like properly managed controlled burns are under-utilized because they are politically controversial. Enacting and enforcing codes mandating land management around private structures are politically unpopular. Out where I live, the local fire rangers just point-blank tell property owners "If you don't clear out all the brush and downed trees within a couple hundred feet of your structures, we're defending your house after the others that meet code" but no politician is willing to tell voters that. Worse, land owners continue to get permits issued to construct permanent dwellings in isolated locations which are extremely difficult to defend. If they want to build there, I say let them but also issue fair warning if they choose to proceed, they are on their own in the event of fire. Volunteer firefighters shouldn't need to risk their lives to defend houses which should never have been built in inaccessible, indefensible locations.

westurner 4y ago
Wildfire suppression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildfire_suppression#Tactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildfire_suppression#Tactics History of wildfire suppression in the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wildfire_suppression_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wildfire_suppressio... Controlled burn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_burn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_burn > A controlled or prescribed burn, also known as hazard reduction burning, [1] backfire, swailing, or a burn-off, [2] is a fire set intentionally for purposes of forest management, fire suppression, farming, prairie restoration or greenhouse gas abatement. A controlled burn may also refer to the intentional burning of slash and fuels through burn piles. [3] Fire is a natural part of both forest and grassland ecology and controlled fire can be a tool for foresters. Hydrogel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogel Aerogel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel Water-based batteries have less fire risk FWIU "1,000% Difference: Major Storage Capacity in Water-Based Batteries Found" (2023) https://scitechdaily.com/1000-difference-major-storage-capacity-in-water-based-batteries-found/ https://scitechdaily.com/1000-difference-major-storage-capac... > The metal-free water-based batteries are unique from those that utilize cobalt in their lithium-ion form. The research group’s focus on this type of battery stems from a desire for greater control over the domestic supply chain as cobalt and lithium are commonly sourced from outside the country. Additionally, the batteries’ safer chemistry could prevent fires.
- westurner 4y ago
  > Hydrogel From https://twitter.com/westurner/status/1572664456210948104 https://twitter.com/westurner/status/1572664456210948104 : >> What about #CO² -based #hydrogels for fire fighting? >> /? Hydrogel firefighting (2022) https://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogel+firefighting https://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogel+firefighting […] >> IDEA: How to make #hydrogels (and #aerogels) from mostly just {air*, CO², algae, shade, and sunshine,} [on earth, and eventually in space,]?
  - westurner 4y ago
    > Aerogel From https://twitter.com/westurner/status/1600820322567041024 https://twitter.com/westurner/status/1600820322567041024 : > Problem: #airogel made of CO² is an excellent insulator that's useful for many applications; but it needs structure, so foam+airogel but that requires smelly foam > Possible solution: Cause structure to form in the airogel. Backpack shoulder straps on e.g. Jansport backpacks have a geometric rubber mesh that's visible through a plastic window. ## Possible methods of causing structure to form in aerogel - EM Hz: literally play EM waves (and possibly deliberately inverse convolutions) at the {#airogel,} production process - Titratation - Centrifugation - "Volt grid": apply volts/amps/Hz patterns with a probe array - Thermal/photonic bath 3d printing - Pour a lattice-like lens as large as the aerogel sections and allow solar to cause it to slowly congeal to a more structural form in advantageous shapes - Die-casting, pressure-injection molding
- westurner 4y ago
  > Water-based batteries have less fire risk FWIU CAES Compressed Air Energy Storage and Gravitational potential energy storage also have less fire risk then Lithium Ion batteries. FWIU we already have enough abandoned mines in the world to do all of our energy storage needs? Could CAES tanks filled with air+CO² help suppress wildfire?
  - westurner 4y ago
    > FWIU we already have enough abandoned mines in the world to do all of our energy storage needs? Here's a prompt for this one, for the AI: "Let's think step-by-step: how much depth or volume of empty mines are needed to solve for US energy storage demand with gravitational potential energy storage drones on or off tracks in abandoned mines? Please respond with constants and code as Python SymPy code with a pytest test_main and Hypothesis @given decorator tests"
idiotsecant 4y ago
Yep, you don't fight massive fires with whizbang technical novelties. In the context of fires big enough to matter the only tools in your toolbox that are sufficiently scalable are very low tech.
- RandallBrown 4y ago
  > In the context of fires big enough to matter the only tools in your toolbox that are sufficiently scalable are very low tech. Isn't that the whole point of this X Prize, to improve the tools available?
  - ortusdux 4y ago
    The #1 tool in our toolbox is prevention. This is a multipart prize, with $5m going to fire detection, and $5m going to fire response. To me it feels like pushing for research into reducing fevers when the virus is the problem. The low tech solutions are typically fuel load reduction, fire breaks, controlled burns, and community education. The first two are standard techniques used by the forestry industry, and they funnel a lot more than $11m into R&D. That being said, new tech for monitoring and controlling controlled burns would be great. Biden-Harris cut loose almost $200m for wildfire defense a month ago. California got more than half of it, WA got $25m, and OR got $24m. I'm very interested to see the results. https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2023/03/20/biden-harris-administration-invests-nearly-200m-bipartisan https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2023/03/20/biden-h...
    - elbigbad 4y ago
      “ The #1 tool in our toolbox is prevention” right now, but perhaps that changes with this prize.
      - manfre 4y ago
        Prevention is always more impactful than treatment/reaction. It's still important to improve the reaction because prevention is rarely 100% effective.
seltzered_ 4y ago
Thanks for this comment. When reading the part where the xprize site says "especially in the expanding Wildland-Urban Interface, where homes, businesses, and major infrastructure are most at risk" It reminded me of the excerpt from the film 'Tending the Wild' about California natives where one argues one needs to learn to 'smell the smoke': https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=42&v=Z-EXQ9be8mE&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=42&v=Z-EXQ9be8mE&feature=you... To me, this is more of a predicament around what our human expectations are and how to appropriately live, especially if populations are desiring to build settlement structures in ways that create wildlife urban interface.
hellotomyrars 4y ago
The access issue is huge and crosses over in to other issues (Inaccessible public land). I didn’t do wildland firefighting when I was a volunteer firefighter but the other people around talked about it a lot. There were areas that had to pay more to be served by neighboring agencies.
hedora 4y ago
All of these work better than suppression: - Bury your power lines. If only PG&E would invest in fire safety… check list of funders in TFA… scratch head. - Rake your forests. (Or “remove ladder fuels”, as it is now called.) - Controlled burns. I’d like my $11M now. Can we spend it on burying lines under an emergency order that bypasses California permitting?
- defaultcompany 4y ago
  "Raking the forest" while a totally viable approach in very specific strategic areas is just way way too expensive and time consuming in the general case. California has like 30 million acres of forest land. Removing brush from a single acre is a multi-day job with the right equipment. It just can't scale.
  - martyvis 4y ago
    After the devastating bushfires in Eastern Australia in the summer of 2019/20 I started sketching ideas of a robot to that do that. My idea is that would identify fuel that could be ameliorated (possibly harvesting and burning in the machine, or mulching and burying). If it was solar powered it could possibly just plod along. That said I think more controlled burns such as were practised by our indigenous people seems to be the most practical.
alfor 4y ago
This. In some place it’s the natural order to have forest fire from time to time. If we prevent them long enough a huge one will happen at the worst time (dry, windy with lots of material to burn. At this point there very little you can do. In the east cost there is rain regularly, so the usual thing is that wood, leaves rot instead, fires happen rarely.
xkfiebfifbek 4y ago
yep. xprize is a pile of money thay billionaires threw around to avoid taxes and get rockets... then forgot about. some craft ong parasites infiltrated it and now it's a huge money maker for them. and they sell the prizes to anyone needing PR. did you just leaked oil near first world waters? let's do a xprize on oil clean up drones ny highschoolers! the org chart is a bunch of VPs taking home a cool mi a year, with a bunch of sales person underneath (director of charity. director of giving. etc. look at their open positions page at any point in time. they churn these fast too.) they will not focus on any meaningful result, like you outlined. only on the innovation as a cult PR. for example, their rain forest one can be solved tomorrow by keeping the US out of couping countries with rainforest, if you were to trust data. but i guess that won't get the vote of a Hollywood actor or a swiss professor who literally have a course on using drones for ecology preservation.

westurner 4y ago

Wildfire suppression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildfire_suppression#Tactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildfire_suppression#Tactics History of wildfire suppression in the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wildfire_suppression_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wildfire_suppressio... Controlled burn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_burn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_burn > A controlled or prescribed burn, also known as hazard reduction burning, [1] backfire, swailing, or a burn-off, [2] is a fire set intentionally for purposes of forest management, fire suppression, farming, prairie restoration or greenhouse gas abatement. A controlled burn may also refer to the intentional burning of slash and fuels through burn piles. [3] Fire is a natural part of both forest and grassland ecology and controlled fire can be a tool for foresters. Hydrogel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogel Aerogel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel Water-based batteries have less fire risk FWIU "1,000% Difference: Major Storage Capacity in Water-Based Batteries Found" (2023) https://scitechdaily.com/1000-difference-major-storage-capacity-in-water-based-batteries-found/ https://scitechdaily.com/1000-difference-major-storage-capac... > The metal-free water-based batteries are unique from those that utilize cobalt in their lithium-ion form. The research group’s focus on this type of battery stems from a desire for greater control over the domestic supply chain as cobalt and lithium are commonly sourced from outside the country. Additionally, the batteries’ safer chemistry could prevent fires.

westurner 4y ago
> Hydrogel From https://twitter.com/westurner/status/1572664456210948104 https://twitter.com/westurner/status/1572664456210948104 : >> What about #CO² -based #hydrogels for fire fighting? >> /? Hydrogel firefighting (2022) https://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogel+firefighting https://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogel+firefighting […] >> IDEA: How to make #hydrogels (and #aerogels) from mostly just {air*, CO², algae, shade, and sunshine,} [on earth, and eventually in space,]?
- westurner 4y ago
  > Aerogel From https://twitter.com/westurner/status/1600820322567041024 https://twitter.com/westurner/status/1600820322567041024 : > Problem: #airogel made of CO² is an excellent insulator that's useful for many applications; but it needs structure, so foam+airogel but that requires smelly foam > Possible solution: Cause structure to form in the airogel. Backpack shoulder straps on e.g. Jansport backpacks have a geometric rubber mesh that's visible through a plastic window. ## Possible methods of causing structure to form in aerogel - EM Hz: literally play EM waves (and possibly deliberately inverse convolutions) at the {#airogel,} production process - Titratation - Centrifugation - "Volt grid": apply volts/amps/Hz patterns with a probe array - Thermal/photonic bath 3d printing - Pour a lattice-like lens as large as the aerogel sections and allow solar to cause it to slowly congeal to a more structural form in advantageous shapes - Die-casting, pressure-injection molding
westurner 4y ago
> Water-based batteries have less fire risk FWIU CAES Compressed Air Energy Storage and Gravitational potential energy storage also have less fire risk then Lithium Ion batteries. FWIU we already have enough abandoned mines in the world to do all of our energy storage needs? Could CAES tanks filled with air+CO² help suppress wildfire?
- westurner 4y ago
  > FWIU we already have enough abandoned mines in the world to do all of our energy storage needs? Here's a prompt for this one, for the AI: "Let's think step-by-step: how much depth or volume of empty mines are needed to solve for US energy storage demand with gravitational potential energy storage drones on or off tracks in abandoned mines? Please respond with constants and code as Python SymPy code with a pytest test_main and Hypothesis @given decorator tests"

idiotsecant 4y ago

Yep, you don't fight massive fires with whizbang technical novelties. In the context of fires big enough to matter the only tools in your toolbox that are sufficiently scalable are very low tech.

RandallBrown 4y ago
> In the context of fires big enough to matter the only tools in your toolbox that are sufficiently scalable are very low tech. Isn't that the whole point of this X Prize, to improve the tools available?
- ortusdux 4y ago
  The #1 tool in our toolbox is prevention. This is a multipart prize, with $5m going to fire detection, and $5m going to fire response. To me it feels like pushing for research into reducing fevers when the virus is the problem. The low tech solutions are typically fuel load reduction, fire breaks, controlled burns, and community education. The first two are standard techniques used by the forestry industry, and they funnel a lot more than $11m into R&D. That being said, new tech for monitoring and controlling controlled burns would be great. Biden-Harris cut loose almost $200m for wildfire defense a month ago. California got more than half of it, WA got $25m, and OR got $24m. I'm very interested to see the results. https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2023/03/20/biden-harris-administration-invests-nearly-200m-bipartisan https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2023/03/20/biden-h...
  - elbigbad 4y ago
    “ The #1 tool in our toolbox is prevention” right now, but perhaps that changes with this prize.
    - manfre 4y ago
      Prevention is always more impactful than treatment/reaction. It's still important to improve the reaction because prevention is rarely 100% effective.

seltzered_ 4y ago

Thanks for this comment. When reading the part where the xprize site says "especially in the expanding Wildland-Urban Interface, where homes, businesses, and major infrastructure are most at risk" It reminded me of the excerpt from the film 'Tending the Wild' about California natives where one argues one needs to learn to 'smell the smoke': https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=42&v=Z-EXQ9be8mE&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=42&v=Z-EXQ9be8mE&feature=you... To me, this is more of a predicament around what our human expectations are and how to appropriately live, especially if populations are desiring to build settlement structures in ways that create wildlife urban interface.

hellotomyrars 4y ago

The access issue is huge and crosses over in to other issues (Inaccessible public land). I didn’t do wildland firefighting when I was a volunteer firefighter but the other people around talked about it a lot. There were areas that had to pay more to be served by neighboring agencies.

hedora 4y ago

All of these work better than suppression: - Bury your power lines. If only PG&E would invest in fire safety… check list of funders in TFA… scratch head. - Rake your forests. (Or “remove ladder fuels”, as it is now called.) - Controlled burns. I’d like my $11M now. Can we spend it on burying lines under an emergency order that bypasses California permitting?

defaultcompany 4y ago
"Raking the forest" while a totally viable approach in very specific strategic areas is just way way too expensive and time consuming in the general case. California has like 30 million acres of forest land. Removing brush from a single acre is a multi-day job with the right equipment. It just can't scale.
- martyvis 4y ago
  After the devastating bushfires in Eastern Australia in the summer of 2019/20 I started sketching ideas of a robot to that do that. My idea is that would identify fuel that could be ameliorated (possibly harvesting and burning in the machine, or mulching and burying). If it was solar powered it could possibly just plod along. That said I think more controlled burns such as were practised by our indigenous people seems to be the most practical.

alfor 4y ago

This. In some place it’s the natural order to have forest fire from time to time. If we prevent them long enough a huge one will happen at the worst time (dry, windy with lots of material to burn. At this point there very little you can do. In the east cost there is rain regularly, so the usual thing is that wood, leaves rot instead, fires happen rarely.

xkfiebfifbek 4y ago

yep. xprize is a pile of money thay billionaires threw around to avoid taxes and get rockets... then forgot about. some craft ong parasites infiltrated it and now it's a huge money maker for them. and they sell the prizes to anyone needing PR. did you just leaked oil near first world waters? let's do a xprize on oil clean up drones ny highschoolers! the org chart is a bunch of VPs taking home a cool mi a year, with a bunch of sales person underneath (director of charity. director of giving. etc. look at their open positions page at any point in time. they churn these fast too.) they will not focus on any meaningful result, like you outlined. only on the innovation as a cult PR. for example, their rain forest one can be solved tomorrow by keeping the US out of couping countries with rainforest, if you were to trust data. but i guess that won't get the vote of a Hollywood actor or a swiss professor who literally have a course on using drones for ecology preservation.