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Reading the comments in this thread really feeds into my bias that worker rights in the US are ... n't? I vividly remember a job posting from last year that lis

Reading the comments in this thread really feeds into my bias that worker rights in the US are ... n't? I vividly remember a job posting from last year that listed '15 allowed sick days' as a benefit. What does that even mean? In Scandinavia, you set a mutual duration of notice for both parties when signing the initial contracts to start working. For IT jobs, the standard is 2-3 months. This gives both parties ample time to adapt.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> Are things really as bad as they sound online? No, online rhetoric bears only a passing resemblance to reality. Especially on HN, where most folks these days get unlimited vacation and work less than 40 actual hours per week. If you're in a low skill blue collar job you will definitely struggle more than someone in the skilled trades. And if you went deeply in debt because someone convinced you that a four year degree in business would pay for itself, I'm sorry.
lannisterstark 4y ago
>you set a mutual duration of notice for both parties when signing the initial contracts to start working. For IT jobs, the standard is 2-3 months. This gives both parties ample time to adapt. That sounds like a nightmare to me. Sometimes I want to quit immediately. I should be able to rather than stay in a miserable job for 2-3 months.
- simonjgreen 4y ago
  You can, you just sacrifice the salary you'd otherwise of received
- SuperCuber 4y ago
  my contract has a month notice, but if I don't work then they don't have to pay me. One month notice is pretty standard in my country, but the wording also gives me an effective way of "no notice" quitting, obviously that's far from the norm here so it burns quite a lot of bridges.
aplusbi 4y ago
You are correct, the US has very few rights for workers, at least federally. Different states have different work protection laws, California has a lot of well known work protection laws. 49 states out of 50 are what are known as "at will employment" states (Montana is the only exception). "At will" employment means that the worker or the employer can terminate employment at any time with no notice. There are some restrictions on this, for example an employer can't fire someone because of their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Additionally there are laws about how larger companies have to handle mass layoffs.
lifefeed 4y ago
American worker rights are very low compared to Europe. But in certain industries, such as software, our benefits are in line with global averages.
0xBDB 4y ago
"What does that even mean?" It means you get 15 paid days a year to be sick. Beyond that, you have a certain number by law (I think 60) which you can take unpaid without risk of being fired. After that, sickness is theoretically grounds for termination, but very few large employers would do that because of the bad publicity. Also most IT workers here have long-term disability insurance for 'free' from their employers, meaning that they're still making 50 or 60 percent of their usual total comp for as long as they're sick after being fired. "In Scandinavia, you set a mutual duration of notice for both parties when signing the initial contracts to start working. For IT jobs, the standard is 2-3 months." I will gladly take a capped number of paid sick days to be able to leave in 2 weeks on good terms, and whenever I want otherwise. I will also take the lower unemployment rate that comes as a result of employers being unafraid to hire because they can easily fire. People seem to think labor flexibility is purely for the benefit of the employer. Not so. Short notice periods are a worker right, one Americans have and Europeans don't.
- Lacerda69 4y ago
  I guess there are tradeoffs both ways. I will gladly accept that downside(?) of having to give 3 months advanced notice for the upside of not being fired arbitrarily on the spot whenever my employer feels like it.
  - dnissley 4y ago
    That's not the primary tradeoff -- that would be the reduced likelihood of being hired in the first place.
- ResearchCode 4y ago
  It is purely for the benefit of the employer. You can always negotiate a shorter or asymmetric notice period. There does not appear to be any relation between "flexibility" (at-will employment so companies can abuse you) and unemployment rates. Japan has 3% unemployment and stronger labor protections than Europe.
  - 0xBDB 4y ago
crazygringo 4y ago
That's correct. There are labor laws but definitely no general concept of worker rights. It's a free market -- they can fire you at any time, and you can quit at any time. Generally speaking, the idea of injecting "rights" into a free, voluntary exchange of money for labor isn't a very American idea. In American thought, rights are generally thought of as protections from government control/abuse. Right to free speech, association, religion, movement, etc. While when it comes to private negotiating with an employer or employee or landlord or tenant, "rights" aren't really an applicable concept. Although freedom from discrimination in protected categories (e.g. sex, race, religion) is a newer right that's now become fairly generally accepted in both the workplace and housing. I'm not arguing this is god or bad, just that it's a different way of thinking from many European countries.

rootusrootus 4y ago

> Are things really as bad as they sound online? No, online rhetoric bears only a passing resemblance to reality. Especially on HN, where most folks these days get unlimited vacation and work less than 40 actual hours per week. If you're in a low skill blue collar job you will definitely struggle more than someone in the skilled trades. And if you went deeply in debt because someone convinced you that a four year degree in business would pay for itself, I'm sorry.

lannisterstark 4y ago

>you set a mutual duration of notice for both parties when signing the initial contracts to start working. For IT jobs, the standard is 2-3 months. This gives both parties ample time to adapt. That sounds like a nightmare to me. Sometimes I want to quit immediately. I should be able to rather than stay in a miserable job for 2-3 months.

simonjgreen 4y ago
You can, you just sacrifice the salary you'd otherwise of received
SuperCuber 4y ago
my contract has a month notice, but if I don't work then they don't have to pay me. One month notice is pretty standard in my country, but the wording also gives me an effective way of "no notice" quitting, obviously that's far from the norm here so it burns quite a lot of bridges.

aplusbi 4y ago

You are correct, the US has very few rights for workers, at least federally. Different states have different work protection laws, California has a lot of well known work protection laws. 49 states out of 50 are what are known as "at will employment" states (Montana is the only exception). "At will" employment means that the worker or the employer can terminate employment at any time with no notice. There are some restrictions on this, for example an employer can't fire someone because of their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Additionally there are laws about how larger companies have to handle mass layoffs.

lifefeed 4y ago

American worker rights are very low compared to Europe. But in certain industries, such as software, our benefits are in line with global averages.

0xBDB 4y ago

"What does that even mean?" It means you get 15 paid days a year to be sick. Beyond that, you have a certain number by law (I think 60) which you can take unpaid without risk of being fired. After that, sickness is theoretically grounds for termination, but very few large employers would do that because of the bad publicity. Also most IT workers here have long-term disability insurance for 'free' from their employers, meaning that they're still making 50 or 60 percent of their usual total comp for as long as they're sick after being fired. "In Scandinavia, you set a mutual duration of notice for both parties when signing the initial contracts to start working. For IT jobs, the standard is 2-3 months." I will gladly take a capped number of paid sick days to be able to leave in 2 weeks on good terms, and whenever I want otherwise. I will also take the lower unemployment rate that comes as a result of employers being unafraid to hire because they can easily fire. People seem to think labor flexibility is purely for the benefit of the employer. Not so. Short notice periods are a worker right, one Americans have and Europeans don't.

Lacerda69 4y ago
I guess there are tradeoffs both ways. I will gladly accept that downside(?) of having to give 3 months advanced notice for the upside of not being fired arbitrarily on the spot whenever my employer feels like it.
- dnissley 4y ago
  That's not the primary tradeoff -- that would be the reduced likelihood of being hired in the first place.
ResearchCode 4y ago
It is purely for the benefit of the employer. You can always negotiate a shorter or asymmetric notice period. There does not appear to be any relation between "flexibility" (at-will employment so companies can abuse you) and unemployment rates. Japan has 3% unemployment and stronger labor protections than Europe.
- 0xBDB 4y ago

crazygringo 4y ago

That's correct. There are labor laws but definitely no general concept of worker rights. It's a free market -- they can fire you at any time, and you can quit at any time. Generally speaking, the idea of injecting "rights" into a free, voluntary exchange of money for labor isn't a very American idea. In American thought, rights are generally thought of as protections from government control/abuse. Right to free speech, association, religion, movement, etc. While when it comes to private negotiating with an employer or employee or landlord or tenant, "rights" aren't really an applicable concept. Although freedom from discrimination in protected categories (e.g. sex, race, religion) is a newer right that's now become fairly generally accepted in both the workplace and housing. I'm not arguing this is god or bad, just that it's a different way of thinking from many European countries.