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Yep. Or the "USA PATRIOT" Act, as it's full name spells. "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Te

by LocalH 3y ago

Yep. Or the "USA PATRIOT" Act, as it's full name spells. "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism". But by calling it "patriot", it implies that you're not a patriot if you don't support it. Never mind that modern American "patriotism" isn't anything of the sort, but is much closer to nationalism.

anigbrowl 3y ago
It's blatant propaganda, but Americans continue to lie to themselves that they live in the freest country in the world.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  I think the overwhelming majority of people are realizing a lot of the rhetoric is just cynical lies at this point. Consider the recent report [1] that only 25% of people don't think the media is deliberately misleading them - 50% think they are, 25% are undecided. The implications of that cannot be overstated, especially as the media has increasingly become little more than a proxy for the official position of the day. [1] - https://fortune.com/2023/02/15/trust-in-media-low-misinform-mislead-biased-republicans-democrats-poll-gallup/ https://fortune.com/2023/02/15/trust-in-media-low-misinform-...
- hellojesus 3y ago
  The real problem is there isn't any better country. Zero countries currently compete with America for greater freedom. Please let me know if you know of any because I'm getting absolutely tired of working four months for free each year, knowing that my tax dollars are paying for goods and services from which I'll never be able to benefit.
  - LocalH 3y ago
    Modern governance is the problem. However, if there is no country that's, say 50% free (to put an arbitrary number on it), and even when we presume that America is 49% free and "everyone else" is less, that doesn't mean there is actual freedom. American freedom seems to largely be centered around the ability to make money, the way things are going nowadays. We were more free in the 70s and 80s. Nowadays people in some areas get child services called because they dared to allow their child to venture somewhere by themselves. America is often the worst offender in some of these areas. True patriotism is understanding that we're not the "best" country in the world, and that we could stand a lot of weeding out chaff. Taxes go to a lot more waste than would ever come out of individual benefits, when you take the end result benefit to society. "Freedom" to allow poverty to exist is "freedom for some, but not for all".
    - sgjohnson 3y ago
      > American freedom seems to largely be centered around the ability to make money, the way things are going nowadays. There's also the freedom of speech, which thankfully is damn near absolute in the US. In fact it has only increased since the 70s.
      - hellojesus 3y ago
        This is the real problem. I would realistically be jailed anywhere but the US for my speech.
  - Rufbdbskrufb473 3y ago
    It depends what you value most. If you don't mind corruption, then in a lot of developing countries like SE Asia, you can have a huge amount of personal freedom by paying the (relatively cheap) occasional bribe. If you're morally opposed to that, I'd recommend Singapore for its financial freedoms. After working there for a year, I was initially opposed to such an authoritarian government, but they're one of the rare ones who use their power to run their country very efficiently and keep out of the way of private enterprise.
    - sgjohnson 3y ago
      > then in a lot of developing countries like SE Asia Also South America, and even the Caribbean islands
      - hellojesus 3y ago
        The thing that always gets me is the freedom of speech issue. I know I'd be jailed in countries like the UK pretty quickly. I don't know how I'd fair in SE Asia, South Africa, or South America, but my hunch is that it wouldn't be great unless they had similar free speech absolutism.
        Rufbdbskrufb473 3y ago
        Is it important to you that your speech is tied to your physical identity? Now that most communication takes place online, it seems the obvious solution is to say anything controversial via pseudonyms. As long as you don't get careless about protecting your true identity, that seems like something you can do just about anywhere.
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  At least in the US we can protest, debate, and oppose these laws. https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/30/politics/what-happens-if-the-patriot-act-provisions-expire/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/30/politics/what-happens-if-the-...
RajT88 3y ago
Modern American "patriotism" begins with nationalism, and gets darker and weirder from there. As an exercise, imagine someone who self-identifies as a patriot. Ask them what makes them a patriot. (If you're not American, you might not get what I am getting at, but probably Canadians get it)
- dsfyu404ed 3y ago
  The Party(TM) must love types like you. There's a huge subset (dare I say majority) of those "patriots" you deride who don't like this stuff, don't think their goings on are any of the government's business. But of course you ignore that because they don't want what you want on meaningless social issues.
  - RajT88 3y ago
    Real patriots, in my experience: 1. Don't talk long and loud about being patriots (i.e. don't self-identify) 2. Tend to work for the government. Career govvies or military. They show their patriotism through action. > There's a huge subset (dare I say majority) of those "patriots" you deride who don't like this stuff, don't think their goings on are any of the government's business. I know the type well, as that describes one side of my family. Despite your protestations, we're saying the same thing.
    - prottog 3y ago
      > Tend to work for the government. Career govvies or military. They show their patriotism through action. I just want to chime in here and say that working for the government isn't the only way to be a patriot (i.e. serve the country). Upholding American values is something anyone can do in any part of society.
      - RajT88 3y ago
        That's fair enough. What's fresh in my memory is a few weeks back, I was at Quantico for the graduation of a family member from the FBI academy, where the convocation speech was delivered by Christopher Wray. I cannot imagine a more patriotic group of people - genuinely people who dedicate their whole lives to the betterment of the nation. It was really inspiring.

by LocalH 3y ago

anigbrowl 3y ago

It's blatant propaganda, but Americans continue to lie to themselves that they live in the freest country in the world.

somenameforme 3y ago
I think the overwhelming majority of people are realizing a lot of the rhetoric is just cynical lies at this point. Consider the recent report [1] that only 25% of people don't think the media is deliberately misleading them - 50% think they are, 25% are undecided. The implications of that cannot be overstated, especially as the media has increasingly become little more than a proxy for the official position of the day. [1] - https://fortune.com/2023/02/15/trust-in-media-low-misinform-mislead-biased-republicans-democrats-poll-gallup/ https://fortune.com/2023/02/15/trust-in-media-low-misinform-...
hellojesus 3y ago
The real problem is there isn't any better country. Zero countries currently compete with America for greater freedom. Please let me know if you know of any because I'm getting absolutely tired of working four months for free each year, knowing that my tax dollars are paying for goods and services from which I'll never be able to benefit.
- LocalH 3y ago
  Modern governance is the problem. However, if there is no country that's, say 50% free (to put an arbitrary number on it), and even when we presume that America is 49% free and "everyone else" is less, that doesn't mean there is actual freedom. American freedom seems to largely be centered around the ability to make money, the way things are going nowadays. We were more free in the 70s and 80s. Nowadays people in some areas get child services called because they dared to allow their child to venture somewhere by themselves. America is often the worst offender in some of these areas. True patriotism is understanding that we're not the "best" country in the world, and that we could stand a lot of weeding out chaff. Taxes go to a lot more waste than would ever come out of individual benefits, when you take the end result benefit to society. "Freedom" to allow poverty to exist is "freedom for some, but not for all".
  - sgjohnson 3y ago
    > American freedom seems to largely be centered around the ability to make money, the way things are going nowadays. There's also the freedom of speech, which thankfully is damn near absolute in the US. In fact it has only increased since the 70s.
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      This is the real problem. I would realistically be jailed anywhere but the US for my speech.
- Rufbdbskrufb473 3y ago
  It depends what you value most. If you don't mind corruption, then in a lot of developing countries like SE Asia, you can have a huge amount of personal freedom by paying the (relatively cheap) occasional bribe. If you're morally opposed to that, I'd recommend Singapore for its financial freedoms. After working there for a year, I was initially opposed to such an authoritarian government, but they're one of the rare ones who use their power to run their country very efficiently and keep out of the way of private enterprise.
  - sgjohnson 3y ago
    > then in a lot of developing countries like SE Asia Also South America, and even the Caribbean islands
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      The thing that always gets me is the freedom of speech issue. I know I'd be jailed in countries like the UK pretty quickly. I don't know how I'd fair in SE Asia, South Africa, or South America, but my hunch is that it wouldn't be great unless they had similar free speech absolutism.
      - Rufbdbskrufb473 3y ago
        Is it important to you that your speech is tied to your physical identity? Now that most communication takes place online, it seems the obvious solution is to say anything controversial via pseudonyms. As long as you don't get careless about protecting your true identity, that seems like something you can do just about anywhere.
cscurmudgeon 3y ago
At least in the US we can protest, debate, and oppose these laws. https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/30/politics/what-happens-if-the-patriot-act-provisions-expire/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/30/politics/what-happens-if-the-...

RajT88 3y ago

Modern American "patriotism" begins with nationalism, and gets darker and weirder from there. As an exercise, imagine someone who self-identifies as a patriot. Ask them what makes them a patriot. (If you're not American, you might not get what I am getting at, but probably Canadians get it)

dsfyu404ed 3y ago
The Party(TM) must love types like you. There's a huge subset (dare I say majority) of those "patriots" you deride who don't like this stuff, don't think their goings on are any of the government's business. But of course you ignore that because they don't want what you want on meaningless social issues.
- RajT88 3y ago
  Real patriots, in my experience: 1. Don't talk long and loud about being patriots (i.e. don't self-identify) 2. Tend to work for the government. Career govvies or military. They show their patriotism through action. > There's a huge subset (dare I say majority) of those "patriots" you deride who don't like this stuff, don't think their goings on are any of the government's business. I know the type well, as that describes one side of my family. Despite your protestations, we're saying the same thing.
  - prottog 3y ago
    > Tend to work for the government. Career govvies or military. They show their patriotism through action. I just want to chime in here and say that working for the government isn't the only way to be a patriot (i.e. serve the country). Upholding American values is something anyone can do in any part of society.
    - RajT88 3y ago
      That's fair enough. What's fresh in my memory is a few weeks back, I was at Quantico for the graduation of a family member from the FBI academy, where the convocation speech was delivered by Christopher Wray. I cannot imagine a more patriotic group of people - genuinely people who dedicate their whole lives to the betterment of the nation. It was really inspiring.