7 ms·

> and from your own desires As a non-religious gay I probably wasn't invited anyway. But this kind of thinking is what leads conservatives to so much repressio

> and from your own desires As a non-religious gay I probably wasn't invited anyway. But this kind of thinking is what leads conservatives to so much repression and hate. The idea that the wants and needs of your body are something which the mind must actively fight. That the scratchy, ill-fitting wool sweater of your culture is something that you must keep on at all costs. And it leads to resentment of people who are not under such self-imposed restrictions. There is a reason in queer culture that 'shadiness' is a bigger sin than anger. Shadiness is what happens when someone represses their true feelings. Those feelings don't go away though, they just resurface in other unexpected and non-adaptive ways.

n1b0m 3y ago
You could say the same thing about extreme endurance sports. It’s not about looking down on other people. It’s about appreciating what you have and for one month putting yourself in the shoes of those for whom even one meal a day isn’t something they can take for granted.
pwillia7 3y ago
I'm non religious too and I take your point, but to play devil's advocate -- Most of civilization and the ability for humans to live and cooperate together in large groups, requires us to move past our base wants, desires and the actions they would create. Even if you want to burn down my house and murder me because I wronged you or slighted your family, that's not morally correct. We have secular law to codify what we see as morally right and I think it makes sense that before states really existed or unified people through national myths, that function was served by Gods
throwaway6734 3y ago
The ability to repress desires to focus on long term goals or to develop appreciate for the satiating of those desires is a good long term skill to have. Distance makes the heart grow fonder
Brendinooo 3y ago
Repressing my desire to eat every bit of food in front of me helps me on the scale. Repressing desires to stay on the couch and going for a run instead gives me freedom to experience the world without being out of breath or stopping halfway on the hike. Repressing desires to keep all of my money for myself leads me to be more charitable, which is better for others. So yeah, self-control is a great thing to cultivate because the presence of a desire does not mean that the desire is good. And even if it's not bad, then it's something that can hinder a greater good.
jmole 3y ago
not religious either – but the notion that your feelings are "true" and ideals or aspirations that run counter to your feelings are "false" is a very one-sided way to look at this. If you ask a heroin addict what their true feelings are, the wants and needs of their bodies, it's probably just "get high". If you ask a 16 year old kid with a porn addiction, it's probably just "get off". There is no shortage of maladaptive desires in the world, and no shortage of ways to fulfill them. I think you can trace probably half the world's problems to one word: "addiction". The motivation system of the brain gone wrong. I think what you're trying to point to here is the other half of the world's problems, which is effectively: "acceptance", or rather, the lack thereof. The empathetic system of the brain gone wrong.
abeppu 3y ago
As a non-religious gay, I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue. However, raiding the cabinet of historically religious practices and stripping god out of them can be helpful. A lot of things we do on impulse don't actually make us happy, and cutting them out for a bit can be a good way to examine whether they've become unhelpful/unskillful habits. I don't think drinking is inherently bad, but "dry January" can be a nice way to check that I'm not developing a dependency. I'm glad I have a smartphone but I do find that periodically being completely away from screens is a good check. Sex, food, other substances, media, can all be good but can also become parts of habits that don't actually lead to happiness. Temporary self-denial can be a useful tool in reworking one's relationship to these, even if you're definitely going to keep them in your life in some form.
- lanstin 3y ago
  freedom in the matter of choosing your own actions is definitely a nice tool to have when planning your week or day, or or responding to stressful suprises.
- robocat 3y ago
  > I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue. Murder? Mayhem? Destruction? Greed? I agree homosexuality is a fine thing, but your comment is altogether far tooo broad. Societal morals are often about denying ourselves things we want to do: often because our actions affect others or offend others, but also often for no strong reason at all. Virtue is almost defined by holding ourselves back from unvirtuous actions: can virtue exist in the world if we can all do whatever we will?
  - abeppu 3y ago
    As a vegetarian for ethical reasons who grew up enjoying eating dead animals, I think we're on the same page actually. But strictly speaking, the virtue (perhaps a loaded word) I think you're alluding to is a willingness to pursue policies which maximize utility function which sums over agents other than oneself, not self-denial per se. Greed is perhaps the most illustrative "vice" on your list; satisfying one's personal greed only sometimes will cause any harm to others, and sometimes will be appropriate to pursue.
hd4 3y ago
That sounds like you're coming at this from a similar standpoint to one of the other major religions which I would rather not mention as I don't want to start a religious war here. In Islam you're not hated or judged for what you call your true feelings. You are however instructed to gain mastery over those feelings and make them subordinate to you rather than the other way around. Fasting is one of the things that can help with that. As for feeling invited, honestly I get why you may think that (because a lot of Muslims do a frankly terrible job of marketing) but that's not how Islam looks at people, it doesn't look at people as unchanging monoliths, instead you are seen as a blank slate and whatever actions you do impact your life here and the life hereafter. Basically your inner reality is between you and God. Islam fully understands people have all sorts of desires, lusts, etc, the thing is in Islam you aren't cursed for having those desires, but for acting upon them rather than gaining control over them. HTH.
- counttheforks 3y ago
  So you are saying they are invited as long as they are willing to endure people trying to change them?
  - hd4 3y ago
    No I didn't say that at all, and that's a petulant response honestly. Re-read my comment. I said Islam instructs people to make their feelings subordinate to them rather than the other way around. The other replies to the GP were not so different from what I'm saying. You're hardly required to state your sexual orientation each time you pray, if that's the sort of line of reasoning you're taking here.
    - counttheforks 3y ago
      Perhaps I misunderstood you? What did you mean with > instead you are seen as a blank slate and whatever actions you do impact your life here and the life hereafter I assumed you meant that people will be welcomed because they are a blank slate that can be written upon by those seeking to influence them.
agumonkey 3y ago
It's more subtle than this. Your brain can tell you to do stupid things. Not all desires are good. I can over eat, over spend, over work or procrastinate. And that's not even going into deeper brain reflex or addiction. And then you have actual neurology. I'm not a religious person, but I believe (sic) that behind fasting periods, there's a training around the theme of balance.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
Hate is natural, just look at history. Practicing restraint from natural feelings like hate is a purpose of fasting. Do note, it has been an organized practice in western civilization centuries longer than even Islam has existed.
cat_plus_plus 3y ago
You got to live and let live, otherwise you are acting no different than them. Greta Thunberg chooses to repress her desires to eat meat or travel and see the world for something she sees as greater good. When she gets older, she may well decide against having children to keep human footprint on the planet smaller. I am not doing any such things myself and I don't accept rewilding as an intrinsic goal of environmentalism. I believe that humans are the apex species on the planet and, like all such species, are primarily concerned with our own thriving - which may involve conservation but not self denial. But, I am not going to try to stop her or make her life difficult with constant needling. Just like you shouldn't stop those who are willing to constrain their own sexuality for the sake of avoiding what they perceive as spiritual pollution, just like Greta is willing to constrain herself to avoid environmental pollution. To each their own, and for some living up according to their idea of honor is a greater comfort than more direct gratification. In time, we all learn something valuable even from those we don't agree with. Can we however agree that America and other countries that embraced Western culture are great because you can live your life as you want and observant Muslims can live their lives as they want?
zdragnar 3y ago
You've completely missed the mark. Life is full of contradictory desires. I would love to have a lean, muscular body. I also love pizza. Fasting is a practice of discipline; consciously choosing to forgo one thing to focus on another. You don't not eat because God or Allah or Buddha or whomever actually care that you didn't eat. You don't eat to focus on mastering your own desires such that you can better your own mindfulness of adherence to the other strictures of your faith during your daily life, even when you are not fasting. The reason many religions focus on fasting is that it is a common and simple way to be aware of a temptation and choose to not give into it. Edit: I should add, in case my point wasn't obvious, that none of the above has to do with you or anyone else. It is purely a personal thing. Anyone who brags about how much religious fasting they are doing are just showing that they have been wasting their time and have gotten nothing from it.

n1b0m 3y ago

You could say the same thing about extreme endurance sports. It’s not about looking down on other people. It’s about appreciating what you have and for one month putting yourself in the shoes of those for whom even one meal a day isn’t something they can take for granted.

pwillia7 3y ago

I'm non religious too and I take your point, but to play devil's advocate -- Most of civilization and the ability for humans to live and cooperate together in large groups, requires us to move past our base wants, desires and the actions they would create. Even if you want to burn down my house and murder me because I wronged you or slighted your family, that's not morally correct. We have secular law to codify what we see as morally right and I think it makes sense that before states really existed or unified people through national myths, that function was served by Gods

throwaway6734 3y ago

The ability to repress desires to focus on long term goals or to develop appreciate for the satiating of those desires is a good long term skill to have. Distance makes the heart grow fonder

Brendinooo 3y ago

Repressing my desire to eat every bit of food in front of me helps me on the scale. Repressing desires to stay on the couch and going for a run instead gives me freedom to experience the world without being out of breath or stopping halfway on the hike. Repressing desires to keep all of my money for myself leads me to be more charitable, which is better for others. So yeah, self-control is a great thing to cultivate because the presence of a desire does not mean that the desire is good. And even if it's not bad, then it's something that can hinder a greater good.

jmole 3y ago

not religious either – but the notion that your feelings are "true" and ideals or aspirations that run counter to your feelings are "false" is a very one-sided way to look at this. If you ask a heroin addict what their true feelings are, the wants and needs of their bodies, it's probably just "get high". If you ask a 16 year old kid with a porn addiction, it's probably just "get off". There is no shortage of maladaptive desires in the world, and no shortage of ways to fulfill them. I think you can trace probably half the world's problems to one word: "addiction". The motivation system of the brain gone wrong. I think what you're trying to point to here is the other half of the world's problems, which is effectively: "acceptance", or rather, the lack thereof. The empathetic system of the brain gone wrong.

abeppu 3y ago

As a non-religious gay, I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue. However, raiding the cabinet of historically religious practices and stripping god out of them can be helpful. A lot of things we do on impulse don't actually make us happy, and cutting them out for a bit can be a good way to examine whether they've become unhelpful/unskillful habits. I don't think drinking is inherently bad, but "dry January" can be a nice way to check that I'm not developing a dependency. I'm glad I have a smartphone but I do find that periodically being completely away from screens is a good check. Sex, food, other substances, media, can all be good but can also become parts of habits that don't actually lead to happiness. Temporary self-denial can be a useful tool in reworking one's relationship to these, even if you're definitely going to keep them in your life in some form.

lanstin 3y ago
freedom in the matter of choosing your own actions is definitely a nice tool to have when planning your week or day, or or responding to stressful suprises.
robocat 3y ago
> I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue. Murder? Mayhem? Destruction? Greed? I agree homosexuality is a fine thing, but your comment is altogether far tooo broad. Societal morals are often about denying ourselves things we want to do: often because our actions affect others or offend others, but also often for no strong reason at all. Virtue is almost defined by holding ourselves back from unvirtuous actions: can virtue exist in the world if we can all do whatever we will?
- abeppu 3y ago
  As a vegetarian for ethical reasons who grew up enjoying eating dead animals, I think we're on the same page actually. But strictly speaking, the virtue (perhaps a loaded word) I think you're alluding to is a willingness to pursue policies which maximize utility function which sums over agents other than oneself, not self-denial per se. Greed is perhaps the most illustrative "vice" on your list; satisfying one's personal greed only sometimes will cause any harm to others, and sometimes will be appropriate to pursue.

hd4 3y ago

That sounds like you're coming at this from a similar standpoint to one of the other major religions which I would rather not mention as I don't want to start a religious war here. In Islam you're not hated or judged for what you call your true feelings. You are however instructed to gain mastery over those feelings and make them subordinate to you rather than the other way around. Fasting is one of the things that can help with that. As for feeling invited, honestly I get why you may think that (because a lot of Muslims do a frankly terrible job of marketing) but that's not how Islam looks at people, it doesn't look at people as unchanging monoliths, instead you are seen as a blank slate and whatever actions you do impact your life here and the life hereafter. Basically your inner reality is between you and God. Islam fully understands people have all sorts of desires, lusts, etc, the thing is in Islam you aren't cursed for having those desires, but for acting upon them rather than gaining control over them. HTH.

counttheforks 3y ago
So you are saying they are invited as long as they are willing to endure people trying to change them?
- hd4 3y ago
  No I didn't say that at all, and that's a petulant response honestly. Re-read my comment. I said Islam instructs people to make their feelings subordinate to them rather than the other way around. The other replies to the GP were not so different from what I'm saying. You're hardly required to state your sexual orientation each time you pray, if that's the sort of line of reasoning you're taking here.
  - counttheforks 3y ago
    Perhaps I misunderstood you? What did you mean with > instead you are seen as a blank slate and whatever actions you do impact your life here and the life hereafter I assumed you meant that people will be welcomed because they are a blank slate that can be written upon by those seeking to influence them.

agumonkey 3y ago

It's more subtle than this. Your brain can tell you to do stupid things. Not all desires are good. I can over eat, over spend, over work or procrastinate. And that's not even going into deeper brain reflex or addiction. And then you have actual neurology. I'm not a religious person, but I believe (sic) that behind fasting periods, there's a training around the theme of balance.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

Hate is natural, just look at history. Practicing restraint from natural feelings like hate is a purpose of fasting. Do note, it has been an organized practice in western civilization centuries longer than even Islam has existed.

cat_plus_plus 3y ago

You got to live and let live, otherwise you are acting no different than them. Greta Thunberg chooses to repress her desires to eat meat or travel and see the world for something she sees as greater good. When she gets older, she may well decide against having children to keep human footprint on the planet smaller. I am not doing any such things myself and I don't accept rewilding as an intrinsic goal of environmentalism. I believe that humans are the apex species on the planet and, like all such species, are primarily concerned with our own thriving - which may involve conservation but not self denial. But, I am not going to try to stop her or make her life difficult with constant needling. Just like you shouldn't stop those who are willing to constrain their own sexuality for the sake of avoiding what they perceive as spiritual pollution, just like Greta is willing to constrain herself to avoid environmental pollution. To each their own, and for some living up according to their idea of honor is a greater comfort than more direct gratification. In time, we all learn something valuable even from those we don't agree with. Can we however agree that America and other countries that embraced Western culture are great because you can live your life as you want and observant Muslims can live their lives as they want?

zdragnar 3y ago

You've completely missed the mark. Life is full of contradictory desires. I would love to have a lean, muscular body. I also love pizza. Fasting is a practice of discipline; consciously choosing to forgo one thing to focus on another. You don't not eat because God or Allah or Buddha or whomever actually care that you didn't eat. You don't eat to focus on mastering your own desires such that you can better your own mindfulness of adherence to the other strictures of your faith during your daily life, even when you are not fasting. The reason many religions focus on fasting is that it is a common and simple way to be aware of a temptation and choose to not give into it. Edit: I should add, in case my point wasn't obvious, that none of the above has to do with you or anyone else. It is purely a personal thing. Anyone who brags about how much religious fasting they are doing are just showing that they have been wasting their time and have gotten nothing from it.