4 ms·

It seems like there is a geographical bound on practicing (Orthodox?) Muslims. I imagine past 66.5 degrees of latitude, someone fasting would probably die due t

It seems like there is a geographical bound on practicing (Orthodox?) Muslims. I imagine past 66.5 degrees of latitude, someone fasting would probably die due to the fact that the sun will never rise for a month. Has there been any debate or clarification on how Muslims living in complete darkness are to practice? Edit: sun will never set/living in 24 hour sunlight. The fasting time is during daylight hours.

wedn3sday 3y ago
Im curious what the approved method is for muslims in space? like, can you have a snack every 90 minutes?
- mnd999 3y ago
  It’s my understanding that if you are subject to unusual fasting conditions - 24hr daylight / darkness / in space you follow the rules as if you were in Mecca.
elashri 3y ago
Yes there is two main opinions for scholars. The first one is obvious, people in this place follow the fasting time of the nearest place that have sound sunrise/sunset times. The other is to follow the fasting times of mecca.
- codersfocus 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - lwhalen 3y ago
    ssshhhhh, it's not irrational superstition if it's been practiced for > 200 years. At that point it becomes quaint tradition. After 500 years, it's 'cultural practice'. Beyond that, unquestionable dogma. Mankind will only be free when the last priest is strangled with the entrails of the last politician.
    - ESTheComposer 3y ago
      Ironic that you're preaching violence I think lol
      - abeppu 3y ago
        I think that line is a paraphrase of something often attributed to Diderot. Since he lived in the 18th century, this falls into the "quaint tradition" category.
        lwhalen 3y ago
        Diderot or not, the 18th Century French certainly knew how to treat their politicians when they went just a bit too despotic.
  - ESTheComposer 3y ago
    I mean I'm not going to go into it too much because there's a lot of reasons why something being divine doesn't mean it needs to spell everything out letter for letter, but I am going to invite comments because your "food for thought" is really just a veiled smirk at people who believe in a divine. Most people who believe in a higher power aren't stupid and have already thought of your point for centuries before you
  - soVeryTired 3y ago
    > I realize there's a 99.9% chance this will cause some emotions, so I won't post any further. Or maybe go the whole hog and just don’t post? I’m not religious but questions like this can only be asked in very specific circumstances without causing offence. This a thread trying to wish a significant segment of the hn community a happy festival. Is now really the time to question their beliefs?
    - vertis 3y ago
      It's the same kind of question that gets asked of Christians and it's absolutely an attempt to cut into the faith. Trying to poke holes in religious texts is just obnoxious. I'm not religious but subscribe to the attitude that we should just let people practice whatever faith they want so long as it doesn't impact upon the rights of those not of the same belief system. I.e. it's fine for Christians to hold other Christians to account, but not to impose their will on others. This is of course something that a lot of religions struggle with, but it's a best effort thing. I think a lot of societies are starting to get that. In any case, Happy Eid Mubarak to all that have been observing Ramadan (this will be my only post on this thread, so it's here or nowhere).
  - mkoubaa 3y ago
    Chronologically, the first sentence of the Quran is "Read." And, the Quran on dozens of occasions demands that people think and use their faculty of reason. A message can be considered divine without it being completely patronizing
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    Why would something that only applies to probably 0.01% of humans be mentioned in a book made to be understood/followed by everyone? Especially when Islam always allows for exceptions based on good faith, reasonable terms and best effort. That's why you can eat pork if no other food is available, or drink alcohol for medical reasons (mostly surgery, back then). You are also allowed to not fast whenever you travel, so it's not like exceptions on fasting rules can't exist. So with that framework, it is not needed to have every single little quirk documented. But it sometimes also requires islamic experts to confirm what would be reasonable and reassure those who haven't read or understood everything in the Quran. You really can't look at Islam as a completely rigid list of potential gotchas. And there's no equivalent of a clergy or a pope, so you have to think of those experts' interpretations as more of a "legal opinion" instead of religious or divine mandates. (It's also why it is funny whenever I hear about people dunking bullets in pig blood or whatever when fighting against muslims, because they think that will send them to hell or something. As if intent isn't super important in Islam!)
  - roarcher 3y ago
    "Now that I've condescended to you, I expect you to let that be the last word." I'm not religious, but your comment ought to be engraved on a monument to pomposity.
  - hqudsi 3y ago
    Islamic tradition values reason and rationality. It doesn’t say to blindly follow stuff. You still have to reason through new situations. The Quran is more for spiritual guidance even though it has some prescriptions. But most of the "rules" come from hadiths or the prophetic tradition which has been passed down orally before it was compiled into books by famous scholars. For example, the Quran says to pray but doesn't spell out how to pray. We learn how to pray from the hadith. Same thing with fasting. The Quran just says fast like Abraham fasted but it doesn't spell what that was. So we follow the way the Prophet did and he's human - he probably wasn't thinking how it would affect people in higher latitudes. He doesn't have supernatural powers or foresight. We say he's the best of us within human limits. Hence why there's a rich scholarly tradition to work these edge cases. It's also why we traditionally break our fast with dates because that's how the prophet did it. But the choice of dates is pretty arbitrary. There's nothing inheritly special about it. It's a staple food in the middle east so it's what he had access to. If the prophet lived in east Asia, then he probably would have broke his fast with rice and then that we would be the thing we break our fast with. Also the Quran is not like other texts when it comes to structure. It was "revealed" (or authored for the non-religious) over a span of 20+ years and usually in response to something that happened. It's really more a dialogue between god and the prophet and his companions in response to events (someone is being mean or trying to kill them) or if they need guidance or reassurance on something. That's why sometimes taking verses literally is often wrong.
    - eimrine 3y ago
      > But the choice of dates is pretty arbitrary. Of course it's not! It must be comfortable for farmers, and the farming season starts just now. I'm not a religious but I respect Islam as the most wise of religions, like an iPhone among other cell phones. I want to try fastening because I see some wisdom in having a month with feeding like that and I consider these days of year as totally not arbitrary.
      - hqudsi 3y ago
        I meant breaking your fast with dates is kinda arbitrary not the fasting itself. Fasting is very much not arbitrary and has a very special meaning since it's one of the few things we do solely for God and God alone. Also you can fast outside of Ramadan as well and get additional blessings from it. The prophet would routinely fast on Mondays for example. I think the only days you are not allowed to fast on is Eid because it's a time for celebration. There's no rule that says you _have_ to break your fast with dates. We just do because that's how the prophet usually did it. Dates have no inherit religious significance. I eat them throughout the year because they are delicious and have nutritional benefits and there's some baraqah (wisdom) in things turning out this way. Also when it comes to farming dates are often harvested in late fall/early winter that's when they are juiciest so we just missed the window but also Ramadan rotates around the seasons due to being on the Lunar calendar. But there are different kinds of dates and you can dry them and they last on long time without spoiling. A very useful property when you live in a desert hence why it's such a common fruit there. Even when the prophet didn't have access to dates, he would break it with water or yogurt, or even just salt instead. Whatever he has access to at the time.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
Navarr 3y ago
I can't read the full article, but The Atlantic has covered it: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/how-to-fast-for-ramadan-in-the-arctic-where-the-sun-doesnt-set/277834/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/ho... I know in Space astronauts are told to follow the timezone of where they are from
twen_ty 3y ago
Have a look at this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6vfsYwXW6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6vfsYwXW6I. The most misunderstood part about Islam is that how practical the religion is - Islam expects believers to give it their best shot, within reason and without being judged by some rigid binary rule. It's perfectly okay to not fast for 22 hours and it's also okay if you can make it. Islam prioritizes health and well being.
- tppiotrowski 3y ago
  Great video. Thank you. A good reminder that religious practices are like human beings. You can try to generalize, but in the end each person's faith is unique in some way.

wedn3sday 3y ago

Im curious what the approved method is for muslims in space? like, can you have a snack every 90 minutes?

mnd999 3y ago
It’s my understanding that if you are subject to unusual fasting conditions - 24hr daylight / darkness / in space you follow the rules as if you were in Mecca.

elashri 3y ago

Yes there is two main opinions for scholars. The first one is obvious, people in this place follow the fasting time of the nearest place that have sound sunrise/sunset times. The other is to follow the fasting times of mecca.

codersfocus 3y ago
[flagged]
- lwhalen 3y ago
  ssshhhhh, it's not irrational superstition if it's been practiced for > 200 years. At that point it becomes quaint tradition. After 500 years, it's 'cultural practice'. Beyond that, unquestionable dogma. Mankind will only be free when the last priest is strangled with the entrails of the last politician.
  - ESTheComposer 3y ago
    Ironic that you're preaching violence I think lol
    - abeppu 3y ago
      I think that line is a paraphrase of something often attributed to Diderot. Since he lived in the 18th century, this falls into the "quaint tradition" category.
      - lwhalen 3y ago
        Diderot or not, the 18th Century French certainly knew how to treat their politicians when they went just a bit too despotic.
- ESTheComposer 3y ago
  I mean I'm not going to go into it too much because there's a lot of reasons why something being divine doesn't mean it needs to spell everything out letter for letter, but I am going to invite comments because your "food for thought" is really just a veiled smirk at people who believe in a divine. Most people who believe in a higher power aren't stupid and have already thought of your point for centuries before you
- soVeryTired 3y ago
  > I realize there's a 99.9% chance this will cause some emotions, so I won't post any further. Or maybe go the whole hog and just don’t post? I’m not religious but questions like this can only be asked in very specific circumstances without causing offence. This a thread trying to wish a significant segment of the hn community a happy festival. Is now really the time to question their beliefs?
  - vertis 3y ago
    It's the same kind of question that gets asked of Christians and it's absolutely an attempt to cut into the faith. Trying to poke holes in religious texts is just obnoxious. I'm not religious but subscribe to the attitude that we should just let people practice whatever faith they want so long as it doesn't impact upon the rights of those not of the same belief system. I.e. it's fine for Christians to hold other Christians to account, but not to impose their will on others. This is of course something that a lot of religions struggle with, but it's a best effort thing. I think a lot of societies are starting to get that. In any case, Happy Eid Mubarak to all that have been observing Ramadan (this will be my only post on this thread, so it's here or nowhere).
- mkoubaa 3y ago
  Chronologically, the first sentence of the Quran is "Read." And, the Quran on dozens of occasions demands that people think and use their faculty of reason. A message can be considered divine without it being completely patronizing
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  Why would something that only applies to probably 0.01% of humans be mentioned in a book made to be understood/followed by everyone? Especially when Islam always allows for exceptions based on good faith, reasonable terms and best effort. That's why you can eat pork if no other food is available, or drink alcohol for medical reasons (mostly surgery, back then). You are also allowed to not fast whenever you travel, so it's not like exceptions on fasting rules can't exist. So with that framework, it is not needed to have every single little quirk documented. But it sometimes also requires islamic experts to confirm what would be reasonable and reassure those who haven't read or understood everything in the Quran. You really can't look at Islam as a completely rigid list of potential gotchas. And there's no equivalent of a clergy or a pope, so you have to think of those experts' interpretations as more of a "legal opinion" instead of religious or divine mandates. (It's also why it is funny whenever I hear about people dunking bullets in pig blood or whatever when fighting against muslims, because they think that will send them to hell or something. As if intent isn't super important in Islam!)
- roarcher 3y ago
  "Now that I've condescended to you, I expect you to let that be the last word." I'm not religious, but your comment ought to be engraved on a monument to pomposity.
- hqudsi 3y ago
  Islamic tradition values reason and rationality. It doesn’t say to blindly follow stuff. You still have to reason through new situations. The Quran is more for spiritual guidance even though it has some prescriptions. But most of the "rules" come from hadiths or the prophetic tradition which has been passed down orally before it was compiled into books by famous scholars. For example, the Quran says to pray but doesn't spell out how to pray. We learn how to pray from the hadith. Same thing with fasting. The Quran just says fast like Abraham fasted but it doesn't spell what that was. So we follow the way the Prophet did and he's human - he probably wasn't thinking how it would affect people in higher latitudes. He doesn't have supernatural powers or foresight. We say he's the best of us within human limits. Hence why there's a rich scholarly tradition to work these edge cases. It's also why we traditionally break our fast with dates because that's how the prophet did it. But the choice of dates is pretty arbitrary. There's nothing inheritly special about it. It's a staple food in the middle east so it's what he had access to. If the prophet lived in east Asia, then he probably would have broke his fast with rice and then that we would be the thing we break our fast with. Also the Quran is not like other texts when it comes to structure. It was "revealed" (or authored for the non-religious) over a span of 20+ years and usually in response to something that happened. It's really more a dialogue between god and the prophet and his companions in response to events (someone is being mean or trying to kill them) or if they need guidance or reassurance on something. That's why sometimes taking verses literally is often wrong.
  - eimrine 3y ago
    > But the choice of dates is pretty arbitrary. Of course it's not! It must be comfortable for farmers, and the farming season starts just now. I'm not a religious but I respect Islam as the most wise of religions, like an iPhone among other cell phones. I want to try fastening because I see some wisdom in having a month with feeding like that and I consider these days of year as totally not arbitrary.
    - hqudsi 3y ago
      I meant breaking your fast with dates is kinda arbitrary not the fasting itself. Fasting is very much not arbitrary and has a very special meaning since it's one of the few things we do solely for God and God alone. Also you can fast outside of Ramadan as well and get additional blessings from it. The prophet would routinely fast on Mondays for example. I think the only days you are not allowed to fast on is Eid because it's a time for celebration. There's no rule that says you _have_ to break your fast with dates. We just do because that's how the prophet usually did it. Dates have no inherit religious significance. I eat them throughout the year because they are delicious and have nutritional benefits and there's some baraqah (wisdom) in things turning out this way. Also when it comes to farming dates are often harvested in late fall/early winter that's when they are juiciest so we just missed the window but also Ramadan rotates around the seasons due to being on the Lunar calendar. But there are different kinds of dates and you can dry them and they last on long time without spoiling. A very useful property when you live in a desert hence why it's such a common fruit there. Even when the prophet didn't have access to dates, he would break it with water or yogurt, or even just salt instead. Whatever he has access to at the time.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

Navarr 3y ago

I can't read the full article, but The Atlantic has covered it: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/how-to-fast-for-ramadan-in-the-arctic-where-the-sun-doesnt-set/277834/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/ho... I know in Space astronauts are told to follow the timezone of where they are from

twen_ty 3y ago

Have a look at this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6vfsYwXW6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6vfsYwXW6I. The most misunderstood part about Islam is that how practical the religion is - Islam expects believers to give it their best shot, within reason and without being judged by some rigid binary rule. It's perfectly okay to not fast for 22 hours and it's also okay if you can make it. Islam prioritizes health and well being.

tppiotrowski 3y ago
Great video. Thank you. A good reminder that religious practices are like human beings. You can try to generalize, but in the end each person's faith is unique in some way.