4 ms·

I actually have a bit of experience doing this sort of thing, except in reverse - when I (white-presenting Canadian) was in Uni getting an English degree, I mad

by jtode 3y ago

I actually have a bit of experience doing this sort of thing, except in reverse - when I (white-presenting Canadian) was in Uni getting an English degree, I made small amounts of money rewriting papers for a guy from Sri Lanka. I cannot comment on the quality of his thought, but his writing was as bad as one would expect from a second language person who was studying a non-literature discipline; it was hard work and he had to be there the whole time to answer questions about what he meant by a sentence. I don't consider that work to be illegitimate; he gave me fully-written essays that I did not change the content of, only the grammar, so that his actual thought could reach his prof in a clear way. A discussion of privilege would mention that he was a rich kid whose father was, by his telling, a fairly important man in Sri Lanka. As such, I think anyone being salty towards this industry of people with essay skills writing essays for money is... wrongheaded, at best. Yes, the clickbaity title of the article emphasizes the way it is being abused by privileged people in the US, but as far as I'm concerned, it is just as possible that they are rewriting essays for people who are doing the work but struggle to compose the words. We all know that's not true in every case, and probably not true in most cases, but bottom line, This Is A Legitimate Industry, and writing off the bad effects of AI on said industry by assassinating the character of those who participate in it for survival is reprehensible.

pharmakom 3y ago
Have you considered that part of what was being assessed was communication ability? If the degree requires essay writing then I expect graduates to be competent at writing.
- User23 3y ago
  Indeed. I think it was Feynman who said something along the lines of "if you can't clearly explain something, you don't understand it." From the pragmatic philosophical distinction, I've acquired an appreciation for distinctness that's as great as mine for clarity[1]. Incidentally, I always find it surprising how readable Peirce's popular works are. [1] https://courses.media.mit.edu/2004spring/mas966/Peirce%201878%20Make%20Ideas%20Clear.pdf https://courses.media.mit.edu/2004spring/mas966/Peirce%20187...
  - vondur 3y ago
    It's got to be really tough for a non-native speaker to become a good writer in another language. It's possible that they were quite a good writer in Tamil, just not in English.
  - poulpy123 3y ago
    It's true but only valid for a language you're proficient in.
  - jtode 3y ago
    He was able to explain the concepts to me with his words just fine, he just wasn't able to write them down too well. Again, I did not correct his work, I was an English student and knew sfa about his work. But I transliterated his Bad English explanations into Good English explanations and he got excellent grades on his essays, so it seems to me he was very competent. I'm pretty sure there's a critical mass of famous science dudes who relied on someone else to turn their scribble into coherent writing. No difference.
- jtode 3y ago
  From what I can see he was studying to prepare for working in International Aid orgs back in Sri Lanka, so I don't think his English matters too much.
vxNsr 3y ago
Putting aside for a minute that most colleges today are just super expensive diploma mills with a fun social scene. The theory behind grading an essay is that you’re assessing not just the idea but also the ability of the writer to communicate that idea. By forcing people to work on how they communicate effectively you get better communication, which in theory leads to a more peaceful world.
- jtode 3y ago
  At my most cynical, my response to this is dripping with acidic sarcasm towards the idea that Kenyans are somehow bringing corruption into our clean, meritocratic university system.
  - vxNsr 3y ago
    Lets me be clear. I am not in anyway blaming the Kenyans. They are providing a service that is clearly sought after.
908B64B197 3y ago
> it was hard work and he had to be there the whole time to answer questions about what he meant by a sentence. I don't consider that work to be illegitimate; he gave me fully-written essays that I did not change the content of, only the grammar, so that his actual thought could reach his prof in a clear way. That's called tutoring. Not only is it legal, but a lot of institutions encourage it and even run official services to offer it. Language proficiency for foreign students is often a pretty big barrier to their success. Your student learned from you, and I'm sure he wasn't ashamed back home to tell his parents that he hired a tutor to sharpen his skills. What these people are doing is different, they are sending in the assignment and expecting a completed paper at the end. They may or may not use it to further their understanding or skills, but they will definitely submit it as their own. > white-presenting Canadian What does that even mean?
- jtode 3y ago
  Look white, grew up white, not completely white in actual fact. I was mainly establishing my general whiteness of character and persona, but being accurate. edit: I describe myself as straight-presenting for the same reasons.
  - 908B64B197 3y ago
    I see. I was wondering if this was the new "culturally accepted term" in Canada r something. Side question: Is race as present over there in politics as it is here in the US? I remember reading about the country now having racial quotas for TV guests appearances and university research grants.
    - jtode 3y ago
      We're exactly as racist as everywhere else, is the most succinctly I can put it.
streptomycin 3y ago
There is (or maybe now "was") a pretty big industry of Americans writing things for foreign students who don't write English fluently. College application essays, homework assignments, even academic publications. Mostly rich kids from China. My friend used to brag about the time his application essay got a kid who barely spoke English into an Ivy League school lol.

by jtode 3y ago

pharmakom 3y ago

Have you considered that part of what was being assessed was communication ability? If the degree requires essay writing then I expect graduates to be competent at writing.

User23 3y ago
Indeed. I think it was Feynman who said something along the lines of "if you can't clearly explain something, you don't understand it." From the pragmatic philosophical distinction, I've acquired an appreciation for distinctness that's as great as mine for clarity[1]. Incidentally, I always find it surprising how readable Peirce's popular works are. [1] https://courses.media.mit.edu/2004spring/mas966/Peirce%201878%20Make%20Ideas%20Clear.pdf https://courses.media.mit.edu/2004spring/mas966/Peirce%20187...
- vondur 3y ago
  It's got to be really tough for a non-native speaker to become a good writer in another language. It's possible that they were quite a good writer in Tamil, just not in English.
- poulpy123 3y ago
  It's true but only valid for a language you're proficient in.
- jtode 3y ago
  He was able to explain the concepts to me with his words just fine, he just wasn't able to write them down too well. Again, I did not correct his work, I was an English student and knew sfa about his work. But I transliterated his Bad English explanations into Good English explanations and he got excellent grades on his essays, so it seems to me he was very competent. I'm pretty sure there's a critical mass of famous science dudes who relied on someone else to turn their scribble into coherent writing. No difference.
jtode 3y ago
From what I can see he was studying to prepare for working in International Aid orgs back in Sri Lanka, so I don't think his English matters too much.

vxNsr 3y ago

Putting aside for a minute that most colleges today are just super expensive diploma mills with a fun social scene. The theory behind grading an essay is that you’re assessing not just the idea but also the ability of the writer to communicate that idea. By forcing people to work on how they communicate effectively you get better communication, which in theory leads to a more peaceful world.

jtode 3y ago
At my most cynical, my response to this is dripping with acidic sarcasm towards the idea that Kenyans are somehow bringing corruption into our clean, meritocratic university system.
- vxNsr 3y ago
  Lets me be clear. I am not in anyway blaming the Kenyans. They are providing a service that is clearly sought after.

908B64B197 3y ago

> it was hard work and he had to be there the whole time to answer questions about what he meant by a sentence. I don't consider that work to be illegitimate; he gave me fully-written essays that I did not change the content of, only the grammar, so that his actual thought could reach his prof in a clear way. That's called tutoring. Not only is it legal, but a lot of institutions encourage it and even run official services to offer it. Language proficiency for foreign students is often a pretty big barrier to their success. Your student learned from you, and I'm sure he wasn't ashamed back home to tell his parents that he hired a tutor to sharpen his skills. What these people are doing is different, they are sending in the assignment and expecting a completed paper at the end. They may or may not use it to further their understanding or skills, but they will definitely submit it as their own. > white-presenting Canadian What does that even mean?

jtode 3y ago
Look white, grew up white, not completely white in actual fact. I was mainly establishing my general whiteness of character and persona, but being accurate. edit: I describe myself as straight-presenting for the same reasons.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  I see. I was wondering if this was the new "culturally accepted term" in Canada r something. Side question: Is race as present over there in politics as it is here in the US? I remember reading about the country now having racial quotas for TV guests appearances and university research grants.
  - jtode 3y ago
    We're exactly as racist as everywhere else, is the most succinctly I can put it.

streptomycin 3y ago

There is (or maybe now "was") a pretty big industry of Americans writing things for foreign students who don't write English fluently. College application essays, homework assignments, even academic publications. Mostly rich kids from China. My friend used to brag about the time his application essay got a kid who barely spoke English into an Ivy League school lol.