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China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "b

China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "better." It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. We Westerners have a philosophical concept inherited from our ancestors that describes that attitude: "hubris."

clouddrover 4y ago
> China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time Yes, and China ended up very far behind. China's progress has come through Westernization. China needs more of it. > It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. Billions more know better.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Very far behind what? China's got a better rail network than the US, more industrial capacity, and produces the world's electronics now. The gap in tech is measured in decades at most, and by that metric the world was behind England (until it wasn't) because England had the accident of thirst for coal and the use for automated, sustained drainage and pumping that allowed them the critical mass of tech and need to build and refine the steam engine. In terms of world history, the era of European / American tech ascendancy is a blip on the radar.
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > China's got a better rail network than the US It's hilarious that the very first example you pick is the quintessential example of Western industrialization and infrastructure. Good old Westernization proceeds apace. You admit China needs more of it.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      > It's hilarious that the very first example you pick is the quintessential example of Western industrialization and infrastructure. True. America's failure to maintain and update its rail infrastructure relative to other countries is downright absurd. The US may have had rail first, but you wouldn't know it to look at them.
      - clouddrover 4y ago
        You've lost track of your thread. You're now consistently admitting that China's progress has come from Westernization. Maybe you should have put your thinking on rails.
        shadowgovt 4y ago
        Who cares? America's progress came from Anglicization. The Brits invented the steam engine, the locomotive, and the electric generator. Then the Americans took those ideas and ran with them. ... now, China's running with the generation of ideas America pioneered and refined, and America's mostly playing catchup because they're off the rails (tragically literally, if you live in East Palestine, OH).
        clouddrover 4y ago
        > Who cares? I do. The Western model is superior. Your Chinese model is inferior. You can live under the boot of an authoritarian regime if you lack the self respect to stand up for yourself. Liberal democracy and the rule of law do take work, and you do sound lazy. Maybe you do need to be told what to do. > tragically literally, if you live in East Palestine, OH Like trains don't derail in China: https://apnews.com/article/china-guangzhou-accidents-c179ac127bdb823b07cd32bd0a4f24ab https://apnews.com/article/china-guangzhou-accidents-c179ac1... China likes covering them up too: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/25/chinese-rail-crash-cover-up-claims https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/25/chinese-rail-c... Now you're just being foolish.
giantrobot 4y ago
> China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "better." The CCP has no continuity with the previous imperial government. They love to make that claim when it's convenient but it's bullshit. It would be like the US claiming they have a national continuity with Britain going back millennia.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  The US does have a national continuity with Britain going back millenia. Half of jurisprudence is grounded not in writings that came after the Revolution, but English Common Law. We lean on the First Amendment for issues of free speech, but we lean on the Magna Carta for questions of whether you've produced the right magic slip of paper to prove you own the land your outhouse sits on. ... hell, many of the states have a right to grant exclusive ownership of that land that's fundamentally rooted in a king having granted them that right. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. You can't ignore that we're mostly speaking English for some reason...
  - giantrobot 4y ago
    Basing laws off laws of another country isn't national continuity. The British didn't just accept the Declaration of Independence and remove their agents from the US. The CCP wasn't formally recognized by the imperial government as the new government of China. There's no continuity of government in either case.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      It really depends on how one defines "nation" (which is kind of a modern and made-up concept).
      - clouddrover 4y ago
        > "nation" (which is kind of a modern and made-up concept). It isn't. Learn your history.
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
That's a favorite trope but they haven't had a continuous unbroken culture. The last dynasty wasn't even Han.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  England is considered to have a continuous culture going back to Londinium and huge numbers of their kings and queens weren't even born in the country.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    And Italian Americans are part of a culture extending back to the Estruscans?
mensetmanusman 4y ago
Todays China is only about a century old now. Current leaders have done much to erase ideas and icons from the past.

clouddrover 4y ago

> China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time Yes, and China ended up very far behind. China's progress has come through Westernization. China needs more of it. > It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. Billions more know better.

shadowgovt 4y ago
Very far behind what? China's got a better rail network than the US, more industrial capacity, and produces the world's electronics now. The gap in tech is measured in decades at most, and by that metric the world was behind England (until it wasn't) because England had the accident of thirst for coal and the use for automated, sustained drainage and pumping that allowed them the critical mass of tech and need to build and refine the steam engine. In terms of world history, the era of European / American tech ascendancy is a blip on the radar.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  > China's got a better rail network than the US It's hilarious that the very first example you pick is the quintessential example of Western industrialization and infrastructure. Good old Westernization proceeds apace. You admit China needs more of it.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    > It's hilarious that the very first example you pick is the quintessential example of Western industrialization and infrastructure. True. America's failure to maintain and update its rail infrastructure relative to other countries is downright absurd. The US may have had rail first, but you wouldn't know it to look at them.
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      You've lost track of your thread. You're now consistently admitting that China's progress has come from Westernization. Maybe you should have put your thinking on rails.
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        Who cares? America's progress came from Anglicization. The Brits invented the steam engine, the locomotive, and the electric generator. Then the Americans took those ideas and ran with them. ... now, China's running with the generation of ideas America pioneered and refined, and America's mostly playing catchup because they're off the rails (tragically literally, if you live in East Palestine, OH).
        clouddrover 4y ago
        > Who cares? I do. The Western model is superior. Your Chinese model is inferior. You can live under the boot of an authoritarian regime if you lack the self respect to stand up for yourself. Liberal democracy and the rule of law do take work, and you do sound lazy. Maybe you do need to be told what to do. > tragically literally, if you live in East Palestine, OH Like trains don't derail in China: https://apnews.com/article/china-guangzhou-accidents-c179ac127bdb823b07cd32bd0a4f24ab https://apnews.com/article/china-guangzhou-accidents-c179ac1... China likes covering them up too: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/25/chinese-rail-crash-cover-up-claims https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/25/chinese-rail-c... Now you're just being foolish.

giantrobot 4y ago

> China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "better." The CCP has no continuity with the previous imperial government. They love to make that claim when it's convenient but it's bullshit. It would be like the US claiming they have a national continuity with Britain going back millennia.

shadowgovt 4y ago
The US does have a national continuity with Britain going back millenia. Half of jurisprudence is grounded not in writings that came after the Revolution, but English Common Law. We lean on the First Amendment for issues of free speech, but we lean on the Magna Carta for questions of whether you've produced the right magic slip of paper to prove you own the land your outhouse sits on. ... hell, many of the states have a right to grant exclusive ownership of that land that's fundamentally rooted in a king having granted them that right. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. You can't ignore that we're mostly speaking English for some reason...
- giantrobot 4y ago
  Basing laws off laws of another country isn't national continuity. The British didn't just accept the Declaration of Independence and remove their agents from the US. The CCP wasn't formally recognized by the imperial government as the new government of China. There's no continuity of government in either case.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    It really depends on how one defines "nation" (which is kind of a modern and made-up concept).
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      > "nation" (which is kind of a modern and made-up concept). It isn't. Learn your history.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago

That's a favorite trope but they haven't had a continuous unbroken culture. The last dynasty wasn't even Han.

shadowgovt 4y ago
England is considered to have a continuous culture going back to Londinium and huge numbers of their kings and queens weren't even born in the country.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  And Italian Americans are part of a culture extending back to the Estruscans?

mensetmanusman 4y ago

Todays China is only about a century old now. Current leaders have done much to erase ideas and icons from the past.