4 ms·

No, not the laws of Nature, just Better. And made better through centuries of hard work and sacrifice. It's what it takes.

snapcaster 4y ago
I also agree they're better (probably coincidence that I was raised in a society and education system praising them nonstop). But to what lengths are you willing to go to impose them on people who don't want them? edit: If we're comparing china, i'm not sure you want to use length of time the society was built as a metric demonstrating chinese inferiority lol
- clouddrover 4y ago
  It's pretty funny that you equate the oppressive actions of an authoritarian regime with what the people want. It's even funnier that you've failed to understand that the whole point of the article is that an authoritarian regime is imposing itself on others. You contradict yourself but convince yourself you're being rational. That's the problem with being an unprincipled apologist. You end up compromised.
shadowgovt 4y ago
China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "better." It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. We Westerners have a philosophical concept inherited from our ancestors that describes that attitude: "hubris."
- clouddrover 4y ago
  > China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time Yes, and China ended up very far behind. China's progress has come through Westernization. China needs more of it. > It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. Billions more know better.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    Very far behind what? China's got a better rail network than the US, more industrial capacity, and produces the world's electronics now. The gap in tech is measured in decades at most, and by that metric the world was behind England (until it wasn't) because England had the accident of thirst for coal and the use for automated, sustained drainage and pumping that allowed them the critical mass of tech and need to build and refine the steam engine. In terms of world history, the era of European / American tech ascendancy is a blip on the radar.
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      > China's got a better rail network than the US It's hilarious that the very first example you pick is the quintessential example of Western industrialization and infrastructure. Good old Westernization proceeds apace. You admit China needs more of it.
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        > It's hilarious that the very first example you pick is the quintessential example of Western industrialization and infrastructure. True. America's failure to maintain and update its rail infrastructure relative to other countries is downright absurd. The US may have had rail first, but you wouldn't know it to look at them.
        clouddrover 4y ago
        You've lost track of your thread. You're now consistently admitting that China's progress has come from Westernization. Maybe you should have put your thinking on rails.
        shadowgovt 4y ago
        Who cares? America's progress came from Anglicization. The Brits invented the steam engine, the locomotive, and the electric generator. Then the Americans took those ideas and ran with them. ... now, China's running with the generation of ideas America pioneered and refined, and America's mostly playing catchup because they're off the rails (tragically literally, if you live in East Palestine, OH).
- giantrobot 4y ago
  > China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "better." The CCP has no continuity with the previous imperial government. They love to make that claim when it's convenient but it's bullshit. It would be like the US claiming they have a national continuity with Britain going back millennia.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    The US does have a national continuity with Britain going back millenia. Half of jurisprudence is grounded not in writings that came after the Revolution, but English Common Law. We lean on the First Amendment for issues of free speech, but we lean on the Magna Carta for questions of whether you've produced the right magic slip of paper to prove you own the land your outhouse sits on. ... hell, many of the states have a right to grant exclusive ownership of that land that's fundamentally rooted in a king having granted them that right. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. You can't ignore that we're mostly speaking English for some reason...
    - giantrobot 4y ago
      Basing laws off laws of another country isn't national continuity. The British didn't just accept the Declaration of Independence and remove their agents from the US. The CCP wasn't formally recognized by the imperial government as the new government of China. There's no continuity of government in either case.
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        It really depends on how one defines "nation" (which is kind of a modern and made-up concept).
        clouddrover 4y ago
        > "nation" (which is kind of a modern and made-up concept). It isn't. Learn your history.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  That's a favorite trope but they haven't had a continuous unbroken culture. The last dynasty wasn't even Han.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    England is considered to have a continuous culture going back to Londinium and huge numbers of their kings and queens weren't even born in the country.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      And Italian Americans are part of a culture extending back to the Estruscans?
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Todays China is only about a century old now. Current leaders have done much to erase ideas and icons from the past.

snapcaster 4y ago

I also agree they're better (probably coincidence that I was raised in a society and education system praising them nonstop). But to what lengths are you willing to go to impose them on people who don't want them? edit: If we're comparing china, i'm not sure you want to use length of time the society was built as a metric demonstrating chinese inferiority lol

clouddrover 4y ago
It's pretty funny that you equate the oppressive actions of an authoritarian regime with what the people want. It's even funnier that you've failed to understand that the whole point of the article is that an authoritarian regime is imposing itself on others. You contradict yourself but convince yourself you're being rational. That's the problem with being an unprincipled apologist. You end up compromised.

shadowgovt 4y ago

China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "better." It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. We Westerners have a philosophical concept inherited from our ancestors that describes that attitude: "hubris."

clouddrover 4y ago
> China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time Yes, and China ended up very far behind. China's progress has come through Westernization. China needs more of it. > It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. Billions more know better.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Very far behind what? China's got a better rail network than the US, more industrial capacity, and produces the world's electronics now. The gap in tech is measured in decades at most, and by that metric the world was behind England (until it wasn't) because England had the accident of thirst for coal and the use for automated, sustained drainage and pumping that allowed them the critical mass of tech and need to build and refine the steam engine. In terms of world history, the era of European / American tech ascendancy is a blip on the radar.
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > China's got a better rail network than the US It's hilarious that the very first example you pick is the quintessential example of Western industrialization and infrastructure. Good old Westernization proceeds apace. You admit China needs more of it.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      > It's hilarious that the very first example you pick is the quintessential example of Western industrialization and infrastructure. True. America's failure to maintain and update its rail infrastructure relative to other countries is downright absurd. The US may have had rail first, but you wouldn't know it to look at them.
      - clouddrover 4y ago
        You've lost track of your thread. You're now consistently admitting that China's progress has come from Westernization. Maybe you should have put your thinking on rails.
        shadowgovt 4y ago
        Who cares? America's progress came from Anglicization. The Brits invented the steam engine, the locomotive, and the electric generator. Then the Americans took those ideas and ran with them. ... now, China's running with the generation of ideas America pioneered and refined, and America's mostly playing catchup because they're off the rails (tragically literally, if you live in East Palestine, OH).
giantrobot 4y ago
> China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "better." The CCP has no continuity with the previous imperial government. They love to make that claim when it's convenient but it's bullshit. It would be like the US claiming they have a national continuity with Britain going back millennia.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  The US does have a national continuity with Britain going back millenia. Half of jurisprudence is grounded not in writings that came after the Revolution, but English Common Law. We lean on the First Amendment for issues of free speech, but we lean on the Magna Carta for questions of whether you've produced the right magic slip of paper to prove you own the land your outhouse sits on. ... hell, many of the states have a right to grant exclusive ownership of that land that's fundamentally rooted in a king having granted them that right. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. You can't ignore that we're mostly speaking English for some reason...
  - giantrobot 4y ago
    Basing laws off laws of another country isn't national continuity. The British didn't just accept the Declaration of Independence and remove their agents from the US. The CCP wasn't formally recognized by the imperial government as the new government of China. There's no continuity of government in either case.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      It really depends on how one defines "nation" (which is kind of a modern and made-up concept).
      - clouddrover 4y ago
        > "nation" (which is kind of a modern and made-up concept). It isn't. Learn your history.
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
That's a favorite trope but they haven't had a continuous unbroken culture. The last dynasty wasn't even Han.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  England is considered to have a continuous culture going back to Londinium and huge numbers of their kings and queens weren't even born in the country.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    And Italian Americans are part of a culture extending back to the Estruscans?
mensetmanusman 4y ago
Todays China is only about a century old now. Current leaders have done much to erase ideas and icons from the past.