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Everyone downvoting this should be completely ashamed of themselves. This isn't reddit - we strive for a higher level of discourse here. "Upvotes / downvotes"

Everyone downvoting this should be completely ashamed of themselves. This isn't reddit - we strive for a higher level of discourse here. "Upvotes / downvotes" mean "good contribution to the discussion / not good, ad hominem, rude, etc." And the above comment is an excellent contribution. I want someone who actually has a good grasp of foreign policy, strategy, wargaming, geopolitics, etc. to answer this. I too want to understand how America arming and training a Ukrainian man to fight Russia is so strategically/diplomatically different from an American man fighting Russia. The degree of indirection seems so minor, how is it so different from direct engagement? Why/how does Russia/U.S. not treat it like direct engagement? I don't understand.

prohobo 4y ago
This is standard proxy war stuff, and isn't even close to what's been going on in the middle east. Like, not too long ago Wagner forces actually had a direct shoot out with the US military in Syria. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/battle-syria-us-russian-mercenaries-commandos-islamic-state-a8370781.html%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/worl... The episode where the Russian jet sprayed fuel on the US drone? Standard cold war tactic that was very common in the 80s. Russians have been ramming and harassing US vehicles for decades. Here's a video of Russians harassing a US convoy of sorts in Syria a few years ago: https://youtube.com/shorts/hSGv02qQfhQ?feature=share https://youtube.com/shorts/hSGv02qQfhQ?feature=share Both sides have been flagrantly arming and training opposing factions in these proxy wars for decades as well. Modern Ukraine looks a lot like a reversed Vietnam, actually, and the US never declared war on Russia for that either. Neither side wants direct confrontation with the other, so they play games like this. Ukraine is a bit tame compared to the other recent/ongoing proxy wars. The flashpoint is that it's happening in Europe, which makes every move very public and sensationalised, and adds more pressure to the situation in general. So most of this talk of "violations" and escalation is in some sense naive, because the actual red lines have been carved in the sand outside of the public eye over the past half century. What we understand as a clear escalation is often just par for the course in the minds of the people involved in these conflicts.
xdennis 4y ago
> Everyone downvoting this should be completely ashamed of themselves. > we strive for a higher level of discourse here I am not ashamed. TexanFeller's comment is not contributing to the discussion, he fearmongers with nukes to advocate for the subjugation of a country. It could just be that it's his honest opinion, but I've seen too many similar comments always using whataboutism and/or nuclear fearmongering.
- TexanFeller 4y ago
  > he fearmongers with nukes to advocate for the subjugation of a country I have concerns about going to war with a nuclear power therefore I'm pro-Russia and wish for the subjugation of Ukraine? Obviously manipulative and ridiculous framing.

prohobo 4y ago

This is standard proxy war stuff, and isn't even close to what's been going on in the middle east. Like, not too long ago Wagner forces actually had a direct shoot out with the US military in Syria. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/battle-syria-us-russian-mercenaries-commandos-islamic-state-a8370781.html%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/worl... The episode where the Russian jet sprayed fuel on the US drone? Standard cold war tactic that was very common in the 80s. Russians have been ramming and harassing US vehicles for decades. Here's a video of Russians harassing a US convoy of sorts in Syria a few years ago: https://youtube.com/shorts/hSGv02qQfhQ?feature=share https://youtube.com/shorts/hSGv02qQfhQ?feature=share Both sides have been flagrantly arming and training opposing factions in these proxy wars for decades as well. Modern Ukraine looks a lot like a reversed Vietnam, actually, and the US never declared war on Russia for that either. Neither side wants direct confrontation with the other, so they play games like this. Ukraine is a bit tame compared to the other recent/ongoing proxy wars. The flashpoint is that it's happening in Europe, which makes every move very public and sensationalised, and adds more pressure to the situation in general. So most of this talk of "violations" and escalation is in some sense naive, because the actual red lines have been carved in the sand outside of the public eye over the past half century. What we understand as a clear escalation is often just par for the course in the minds of the people involved in these conflicts.

xdennis 4y ago

> Everyone downvoting this should be completely ashamed of themselves. > we strive for a higher level of discourse here I am not ashamed. TexanFeller's comment is not contributing to the discussion, he fearmongers with nukes to advocate for the subjugation of a country. It could just be that it's his honest opinion, but I've seen too many similar comments always using whataboutism and/or nuclear fearmongering.

TexanFeller 4y ago
> he fearmongers with nukes to advocate for the subjugation of a country I have concerns about going to war with a nuclear power therefore I'm pro-Russia and wish for the subjugation of Ukraine? Obviously manipulative and ridiculous framing.