4 ms·

I recall that the default place for "unknown" in the US was a spot just next to a farm they was raided by the police on a regular basis because this is where th

I recall that the default place for "unknown" in the US was a spot just next to a farm they was raided by the police on a regular basis because this is where their GPS was directing them. They even had a document to show that explained the thing. I think that this point was ultimately moved to the center of a lake.

yunruse 4y ago
I remember this! A company, MaxMind, provided GeoIP mapping, but the default unknown for the US was right on someone's property, which lead to severe distress and (quite reasonably) a lawsuit [0]. A horrifying example of peculiar glitches causing real harm :( [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/09/maxmind-mapping-lawsuit-kansas-farm-ip-address https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/09/maxmind-m...
- romwell 4y ago
  > A horrifying example of ~peculiar glitches~ incompetent people with monopoly on violence causing real harm :( The people who authorize the raids aren't supposed to blindly rely on tech without being aware of its limitations. A person who doesn't understand that GeoIP doesn't give you coordinates to raid should not be in a position to send raids to such coordinates, and is the one ultimately responsible for this. The fact that there will be no consequences for them is the real issue.
  - treeman79 4y ago
    People are people. First responders are told to go to a place and do a thing. That is what they do. They do this dozens of times a day. Sometimes the computer is stupid.
    - HideousKojima 4y ago
      >First responders are told to go to a place and do a thing. By whom? There's still a human blindly trusting what the computer says somewhere in the loop, and we can and should expect them to do due diligence for a matter where lives are on the line, like a raid.
      - teddyh 4y ago
        You can “expect” all you like, but doing so won’t make it better. The best way to solve this problem would, as you say, to have people do better. But that is not happening, and the problem still needs solving as soon as possible.
        romwell 4y ago
        >You can “expect” all you like, but doing so won’t make it better. The best way to solve this problem would, as you say, to have people do better. But that is not happening, and the problem still needs solving as soon as possible. Yes. And this is what #defundthepolice is about, once you learn enough about it.
        treeman79 4y ago
        And every city that defunds turns into a hell scape.
        romwell 4y ago
        >And every city that defunds turns into a hell scape. [citation needed] Last time I checked, that wasn't the case[1]. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-city-disbanded-its-police-force-here-s-what-n1231677 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-city-disband...
    - marcellus23 4y ago
      They are not just "people," they're people with guns and the power to kill innocent citizens and destroy their property with barely any consequences. It's reasonable to expect them to be a bit careful about their job.
      - ALittleLight 4y ago
        It is reasonable to expect, but also they won't. The solution is fixing the software rather than being indignant about how people should use it correctly.
        marcellus23 4y ago
        (It's trite but) you can do both.
        romwell 4y ago
        >The solution is fixing the software No. The solution is fixing the system that allows these people to act with impunity. No matter how "fixed" the software is, they'll find ways to misuse it.
    - p_j_w 4y ago
      >Sometimes the computer is stupid. Then the police SWAT teams need to take this into account before they go making life and death decisions, don't they?
mtmail 4y ago
Found the article. It was an IP-to-coorindates database that returned about the center of the United States if the real position was unknown or just "US". "MaxMind's database places them at the same spot: 38.0000,-97.0000. Which happens to be in the front yard of Joyce Taylor's house." https://splinternews.com/how-an-internet-mapping-glitch-turned-a-random-kansas-f-1793856052 https://splinternews.com/how-an-internet-mapping-glitch-turn...
- msrenee 4y ago
  Those people affected must be so thankful to that reporter. I can't imagine what a relief it must have been for him to not only tell them what the problem was, but also get in contact with the company and get it rectified.
  - bragr 4y ago
    For those people sure, but apparently people that live in the center of other entities (states, counties, zip/postal codes), have this problem too, just at a smaller scale.
    - tough 4y ago
      They can now do whatever the journalist did and get it fixed hopefully
      - rnk 4y ago
        This is basically swatting. Everyone could live in the center of some random group. And almost every day there's a new example of the police going to the wrong address and killing someone. We shouldn't have to defend ourselves from the police visiting us so they don't kill us in cold blood.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- 4y ago
snarf21 4y ago
A lot of this had bad fall through logic. Most times if a distinct place couldn't be geocoded, it would take the centroid of the parent object and use that as an estimate. So if you knew it was the US but couldn't find anything specific it might pick the center point of the US mainland polygon. Same follows for a town in a specific state that can't be found and using the state polygon centroid. Product would often prefer a wrong map to a "We couldn't find it." Source: Worked for MapQuest for many many years.
- raron 4y ago
  Well, you know, maybe some accuracy numbers should be attached to position for emergency services or law enforcement... even the default maps app on my phones show a accuracy-circle around the got position. Or use something which represent an area not a point, like plus codes.
  - snarf21 4y ago
    Well, I think the real answer is to just be honest that it couldn't be found. Product wouldn't do that in the early days.

yunruse 4y ago

I remember this! A company, MaxMind, provided GeoIP mapping, but the default unknown for the US was right on someone's property, which lead to severe distress and (quite reasonably) a lawsuit [0]. A horrifying example of peculiar glitches causing real harm :( [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/09/maxmind-mapping-lawsuit-kansas-farm-ip-address https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/09/maxmind-m...

romwell 4y ago
> A horrifying example of ~peculiar glitches~ incompetent people with monopoly on violence causing real harm :( The people who authorize the raids aren't supposed to blindly rely on tech without being aware of its limitations. A person who doesn't understand that GeoIP doesn't give you coordinates to raid should not be in a position to send raids to such coordinates, and is the one ultimately responsible for this. The fact that there will be no consequences for them is the real issue.
- treeman79 4y ago
  People are people. First responders are told to go to a place and do a thing. That is what they do. They do this dozens of times a day. Sometimes the computer is stupid.
  - HideousKojima 4y ago
    >First responders are told to go to a place and do a thing. By whom? There's still a human blindly trusting what the computer says somewhere in the loop, and we can and should expect them to do due diligence for a matter where lives are on the line, like a raid.
    - teddyh 4y ago
      You can “expect” all you like, but doing so won’t make it better. The best way to solve this problem would, as you say, to have people do better. But that is not happening, and the problem still needs solving as soon as possible.
      - romwell 4y ago
        >You can “expect” all you like, but doing so won’t make it better. The best way to solve this problem would, as you say, to have people do better. But that is not happening, and the problem still needs solving as soon as possible. Yes. And this is what #defundthepolice is about, once you learn enough about it.
        treeman79 4y ago
        And every city that defunds turns into a hell scape.
        romwell 4y ago
        >And every city that defunds turns into a hell scape. [citation needed] Last time I checked, that wasn't the case[1]. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-city-disbanded-its-police-force-here-s-what-n1231677 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-city-disband...
  - marcellus23 4y ago
    They are not just "people," they're people with guns and the power to kill innocent citizens and destroy their property with barely any consequences. It's reasonable to expect them to be a bit careful about their job.
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      It is reasonable to expect, but also they won't. The solution is fixing the software rather than being indignant about how people should use it correctly.
      - marcellus23 4y ago
        (It's trite but) you can do both.
      - romwell 4y ago
        >The solution is fixing the software No. The solution is fixing the system that allows these people to act with impunity. No matter how "fixed" the software is, they'll find ways to misuse it.
  - p_j_w 4y ago
    >Sometimes the computer is stupid. Then the police SWAT teams need to take this into account before they go making life and death decisions, don't they?

mtmail 4y ago

Found the article. It was an IP-to-coorindates database that returned about the center of the United States if the real position was unknown or just "US". "MaxMind's database places them at the same spot: 38.0000,-97.0000. Which happens to be in the front yard of Joyce Taylor's house." https://splinternews.com/how-an-internet-mapping-glitch-turned-a-random-kansas-f-1793856052 https://splinternews.com/how-an-internet-mapping-glitch-turn...

msrenee 4y ago
Those people affected must be so thankful to that reporter. I can't imagine what a relief it must have been for him to not only tell them what the problem was, but also get in contact with the company and get it rectified.
- bragr 4y ago
  For those people sure, but apparently people that live in the center of other entities (states, counties, zip/postal codes), have this problem too, just at a smaller scale.
  - tough 4y ago
    They can now do whatever the journalist did and get it fixed hopefully
    - rnk 4y ago
      This is basically swatting. Everyone could live in the center of some random group. And almost every day there's a new example of the police going to the wrong address and killing someone. We shouldn't have to defend ourselves from the police visiting us so they don't kill us in cold blood.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
4y ago

snarf21 4y ago

A lot of this had bad fall through logic. Most times if a distinct place couldn't be geocoded, it would take the centroid of the parent object and use that as an estimate. So if you knew it was the US but couldn't find anything specific it might pick the center point of the US mainland polygon. Same follows for a town in a specific state that can't be found and using the state polygon centroid. Product would often prefer a wrong map to a "We couldn't find it." Source: Worked for MapQuest for many many years.

raron 4y ago
Well, you know, maybe some accuracy numbers should be attached to position for emergency services or law enforcement... even the default maps app on my phones show a accuracy-circle around the got position. Or use something which represent an area not a point, like plus codes.
- snarf21 4y ago
  Well, I think the real answer is to just be honest that it couldn't be found. Product wouldn't do that in the early days.