6 ms·

if the students had something interesting to write about then they couldn't really get a kenyan to write it for them. this model only works because the student'

if the students had something interesting to write about then they couldn't really get a kenyan to write it for them. this model only works because the student's are being asked to do busy work.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
Writing is like a muscle, one has to practice. That's not busywork
andsoitis 4y ago
> if the students had something interesting to write about then they couldn't really get a kenyan to write it for them. Can you elaborate?
- sdfghswe 4y ago
  I'll elaborate. There's this strain of anti-intellectualism that blames everything on education being a farce. It never actually clarifies how anything could be better, it just states that it's bad as it is.
  - govolckurself 4y ago
    An admission essay is hardly education, it's a pro forma hoop to jump through to get into college (especially now that more and more are ignoring test scores). So you have to invent eight hobbies and convince a bunch of bored administrators that playing the cello since you were four has really helped you overcome adversity, but it's also made you disciplined and ready to take on the world. I'm very pro-education, and anti-college admissions essay.
  - rajin444 4y ago
    There’s also a strain of anti intellectualism that assumes every human should be forced through 12ish years of schooling and every human should achieve the same base level of results. Public education for all is not much different than the American idea of “temporarily embarrassed millionaires”. Leave education for those that either want or can benefit from it. Come up with more efficient systems for the rest of the masses.
    - flangola7 4y ago
      The expectation of universal results has problems, but universal education is one of the most crucial cornerstones of developed society. Culture and innovation blossom from it like flowers in rich fertile soil. There's a reason humans have fought (sometimes literally) for access to an education.
      - quacked 4y ago
        Culture and innovation blossom from human knowledge, not formal state-mandated education systems. Today, as throughout history, most "culture and innovation" (as measured by inventions, companies, researchers, art, philosophy, etc.) spring from men and women who break ties with their "educations" and instead strike out on their own in the search of truth. We both agree that a literate and highly knowledgeable citizenry is paramount to the success of society, but the current western education model is failing to produce that citizenry. This failure is in part because professional educators remain unaware that universal education did not create developed societies, rather developed societies created universal education. Information alone is insufficient to instill individuals with the character necessary to create great societies. The citizenry must already be strong-willed and self-determined for education to successfully add serious value to their lives. Those are the people who fight for their education. Many students today instead fight to avoid learning anything, because the system they're trapped inside has become so odious and hampered by redundancy, inefficiency, and a total lack of humanity.
    - mnky9800n 4y ago
      I went to hippie boarding school where I had no science and one math class between the ages of 11 and 18. Most of my time was spent doing other stuff. Now I have a PhD in physics and work as a research scientist. School is a joke and prepares you for nothing. Although I suppose you could say I was prepared for the path I wanted. Perhaps the deeper take away is that educational preparation is much more complex then simply exposing young people to content they will learn more deeply later. Who knows.
  - hardware2win 4y ago
    Thats naive as hell Everybody has their reasons about whats wrong about formal education - some are better and some are way too individual, yet lets do not act as if formal edu was something flawless
  - myrmidon 4y ago
    Although there are specific, genuine concerns mixed into that anti-intellectualism sometimes: e.g. regarding political indoctrination through education. I used to find such arguments patently ridiculous myself, until a very recent HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35488772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35488772. The political slant in those EXAM QUESTIONS appears completely absurd to me-- its basically on a "full points only if you call the californians hypocrites"-level (and thats not even hyperbole), and if that is what an exam is allowed to look like I don't even want to know how much overt preaching happens in the lectures. An opinionated professor is fine, possibly entertaining even, and being exposed to conflicting viewpoints is valuable in itself, but THAT went WAY beyound any reasonable bounds.
    - e63f67dd-065b 4y ago
      Yeah that midterm grading system was basically "you get an A if you agree with my political opinions, and you fail if you disagree". He's not even teaching at a tiny liberal arts college in the middle of nowhere, this is at George Mason University, a highly regarded research university. It's fine if he explains his viewpoints in lecture occasionally, but not if passing a class is dependent on agreeing with the professor on everything. If that were the case, most economists would fail his midterm.
      - mnky9800n 4y ago
        Yeah but he's an economist.
    - sebzim4500 4y ago
      Surely that exam does not represent the typical experience of a US college student? It is insane.
      - myrmidon 4y ago
        I don't think so (I asked in the comments and from the responses I got can only conclude that this is NOT the norm). But the fact that the professor himself has no problem sharing this online is concerning itself. This should, in my opinion, appear immediately and obviously unethical to everyone involved, even if you share the professors political outlook completely...
  - f6v 4y ago
    If anything, LLMs showed that you don’t need ability to reason to perform many jobs, like content writing. College assays are probably another good example. I can offer a solution though. Don’t create that many for-profit institutions that teach useless degrees. Don’t put students in debt for getting useless degrees that they cheat their way though. Done.
    - sdfghswe 4y ago
      It's not a solution because many people will disagree with the premise. Just because LLM can generate text doesn't mean generating text is useless. Namely, it helps thinking. Do you also believe humans have to understand fractions because computers can do them? Genuine question; a lot of people think like that. EDIT: Also, no one is putting anyone in debt. People are free to choose what they want to do. Don't wanna study, just don't. Easy. No, what's actually happening is that individually are making dumb decisions out of their own free will.
      - f6v 4y ago
        > Just because LLM can generate text doesn't mean generating text is useless. Namely, it helps thinking. This doesn’t disprove that many degrees are profit-driven. Those are bound to have dumb assignments that even an LLM can complete. > People are free to choose what they want to do. I wonder if you ever heard of incentives in society. Incentives can be misaligned.
        sdfghswe 4y ago
        > Those are bound to have dumb assignments that even an LLM can complete. Right, lets stop teaching children how to sum. I wonder if you've ever learned anything complex in your entire life. Probably not. But the rest of us now that training of any kind starts simple and builds from there.
  - mnky9800n 4y ago
    I think most of the University could probably be replaced by short courses and long apprenticeships. At least in stem. This would likely reduce the amount of people who could go to universities.
burkaman 4y ago
Why do you think a Kenyan would be incapable of writing about something interesting?
- atlasunshrugged 4y ago
  In the authors defense, I read it as referring to Kenyans because of the nature of the article which talks about them, not specifically about Kenyans not having anything interesting to write about or the skills to do so (having spend a good amount of time in Nairobi I know this is not the case!)
  - mnky9800n 4y ago
    Yes. My comment is about the activity, not Kenyans. Kenyans is simply the context of the original post.
burnished 4y ago
I saw rampant cheating in an engineering program - there was zero busy work, homework problems were really more like a good starting place, and people still cheated. Also - weird thing to say about kenyans. The people under discussion specifically make their living by researching and writing academic essays, I think the natural assumption is that they'd be pretty sharp. No one wants to pay for Cs and Ds.
- mattnewton 4y ago
  > No one wants to pay for Cs and Ds. My experience in college was that plenty of students have priorities of just passing without having to do the work, and would pay for C’s in required courses they don’t think are important while partying or working a part time job.
- mnky9800n 4y ago
  It's not a slight against Kenyans. It's a slight against not connecting course activities closely with motivation.
sn41 4y ago
Everything every Kenyan ever writes is boring? Don't equate being (comparatively) poor with being stupid.
Loughla 4y ago
Busy work is practice work in some cases. You aren't immediately at a major league level of play when you start playing baseball. Why would you immediately be a good writer, critical thinker, poet, or whatever else?

if the students had something interesting to write about then they couldn't really get a kenyan to write it for them. this model only works because the student's are being asked to do busy work.

paulryanrogers 4y ago

Writing is like a muscle, one has to practice. That's not busywork

andsoitis 4y ago

> if the students had something interesting to write about then they couldn't really get a kenyan to write it for them. Can you elaborate?

sdfghswe 4y ago
I'll elaborate. There's this strain of anti-intellectualism that blames everything on education being a farce. It never actually clarifies how anything could be better, it just states that it's bad as it is.
- govolckurself 4y ago
  An admission essay is hardly education, it's a pro forma hoop to jump through to get into college (especially now that more and more are ignoring test scores). So you have to invent eight hobbies and convince a bunch of bored administrators that playing the cello since you were four has really helped you overcome adversity, but it's also made you disciplined and ready to take on the world. I'm very pro-education, and anti-college admissions essay.
- rajin444 4y ago
  There’s also a strain of anti intellectualism that assumes every human should be forced through 12ish years of schooling and every human should achieve the same base level of results. Public education for all is not much different than the American idea of “temporarily embarrassed millionaires”. Leave education for those that either want or can benefit from it. Come up with more efficient systems for the rest of the masses.
  - flangola7 4y ago
    The expectation of universal results has problems, but universal education is one of the most crucial cornerstones of developed society. Culture and innovation blossom from it like flowers in rich fertile soil. There's a reason humans have fought (sometimes literally) for access to an education.
    - quacked 4y ago
      Culture and innovation blossom from human knowledge, not formal state-mandated education systems. Today, as throughout history, most "culture and innovation" (as measured by inventions, companies, researchers, art, philosophy, etc.) spring from men and women who break ties with their "educations" and instead strike out on their own in the search of truth. We both agree that a literate and highly knowledgeable citizenry is paramount to the success of society, but the current western education model is failing to produce that citizenry. This failure is in part because professional educators remain unaware that universal education did not create developed societies, rather developed societies created universal education. Information alone is insufficient to instill individuals with the character necessary to create great societies. The citizenry must already be strong-willed and self-determined for education to successfully add serious value to their lives. Those are the people who fight for their education. Many students today instead fight to avoid learning anything, because the system they're trapped inside has become so odious and hampered by redundancy, inefficiency, and a total lack of humanity.
  - mnky9800n 4y ago
    I went to hippie boarding school where I had no science and one math class between the ages of 11 and 18. Most of my time was spent doing other stuff. Now I have a PhD in physics and work as a research scientist. School is a joke and prepares you for nothing. Although I suppose you could say I was prepared for the path I wanted. Perhaps the deeper take away is that educational preparation is much more complex then simply exposing young people to content they will learn more deeply later. Who knows.
- hardware2win 4y ago
  Thats naive as hell Everybody has their reasons about whats wrong about formal education - some are better and some are way too individual, yet lets do not act as if formal edu was something flawless
- myrmidon 4y ago
  Although there are specific, genuine concerns mixed into that anti-intellectualism sometimes: e.g. regarding political indoctrination through education. I used to find such arguments patently ridiculous myself, until a very recent HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35488772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35488772. The political slant in those EXAM QUESTIONS appears completely absurd to me-- its basically on a "full points only if you call the californians hypocrites"-level (and thats not even hyperbole), and if that is what an exam is allowed to look like I don't even want to know how much overt preaching happens in the lectures. An opinionated professor is fine, possibly entertaining even, and being exposed to conflicting viewpoints is valuable in itself, but THAT went WAY beyound any reasonable bounds.
  - e63f67dd-065b 4y ago
    Yeah that midterm grading system was basically "you get an A if you agree with my political opinions, and you fail if you disagree". He's not even teaching at a tiny liberal arts college in the middle of nowhere, this is at George Mason University, a highly regarded research university. It's fine if he explains his viewpoints in lecture occasionally, but not if passing a class is dependent on agreeing with the professor on everything. If that were the case, most economists would fail his midterm.
    - mnky9800n 4y ago
      Yeah but he's an economist.
  - sebzim4500 4y ago
    Surely that exam does not represent the typical experience of a US college student? It is insane.
    - myrmidon 4y ago
      I don't think so (I asked in the comments and from the responses I got can only conclude that this is NOT the norm). But the fact that the professor himself has no problem sharing this online is concerning itself. This should, in my opinion, appear immediately and obviously unethical to everyone involved, even if you share the professors political outlook completely...
- f6v 4y ago
  If anything, LLMs showed that you don’t need ability to reason to perform many jobs, like content writing. College assays are probably another good example. I can offer a solution though. Don’t create that many for-profit institutions that teach useless degrees. Don’t put students in debt for getting useless degrees that they cheat their way though. Done.
  - sdfghswe 4y ago
    It's not a solution because many people will disagree with the premise. Just because LLM can generate text doesn't mean generating text is useless. Namely, it helps thinking. Do you also believe humans have to understand fractions because computers can do them? Genuine question; a lot of people think like that. EDIT: Also, no one is putting anyone in debt. People are free to choose what they want to do. Don't wanna study, just don't. Easy. No, what's actually happening is that individually are making dumb decisions out of their own free will.
    - f6v 4y ago
      > Just because LLM can generate text doesn't mean generating text is useless. Namely, it helps thinking. This doesn’t disprove that many degrees are profit-driven. Those are bound to have dumb assignments that even an LLM can complete. > People are free to choose what they want to do. I wonder if you ever heard of incentives in society. Incentives can be misaligned.
      - sdfghswe 4y ago
        > Those are bound to have dumb assignments that even an LLM can complete. Right, lets stop teaching children how to sum. I wonder if you've ever learned anything complex in your entire life. Probably not. But the rest of us now that training of any kind starts simple and builds from there.
- mnky9800n 4y ago
  I think most of the University could probably be replaced by short courses and long apprenticeships. At least in stem. This would likely reduce the amount of people who could go to universities.

burkaman 4y ago

Why do you think a Kenyan would be incapable of writing about something interesting?

atlasunshrugged 4y ago
In the authors defense, I read it as referring to Kenyans because of the nature of the article which talks about them, not specifically about Kenyans not having anything interesting to write about or the skills to do so (having spend a good amount of time in Nairobi I know this is not the case!)
- mnky9800n 4y ago
  Yes. My comment is about the activity, not Kenyans. Kenyans is simply the context of the original post.

burnished 4y ago

I saw rampant cheating in an engineering program - there was zero busy work, homework problems were really more like a good starting place, and people still cheated. Also - weird thing to say about kenyans. The people under discussion specifically make their living by researching and writing academic essays, I think the natural assumption is that they'd be pretty sharp. No one wants to pay for Cs and Ds.

mattnewton 4y ago
> No one wants to pay for Cs and Ds. My experience in college was that plenty of students have priorities of just passing without having to do the work, and would pay for C’s in required courses they don’t think are important while partying or working a part time job.
mnky9800n 4y ago
It's not a slight against Kenyans. It's a slight against not connecting course activities closely with motivation.

sn41 4y ago

Everything every Kenyan ever writes is boring? Don't equate being (comparatively) poor with being stupid.

Loughla 4y ago

Busy work is practice work in some cases. You aren't immediately at a major league level of play when you start playing baseball. Why would you immediately be a good writer, critical thinker, poet, or whatever else?