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> The gas was being paid for. There's basically no time or casual connection to frozen accounts. EU sanctioned Russia's foreign assets and froze accounts, prev

> The gas was being paid for. There's basically no time or casual connection to frozen accounts. EU sanctioned Russia's foreign assets and froze accounts, preventing Russia from using it's funds. Gazprom was specifically sanctioned as a government-related entity. I am not making this up, I am googling as I type: "was gazprom sactioned by EU?", "was russia accounts frozen by EU?", etc. All of this is public information. Unless you claim that this had happened in some other plane of the multiverse, this IS your time and casual connection. Moreover, this is literally not paying - these funds remain in the EU economy, kept reinvested by bankers who manage them while boosting EU liquidity. > Bulgaria was e.g. one of the first cut-off countries despite not freezing any accounts. Is Bulgaria not a EU state that paid in EUR to Gazprombank’s Luxembourg-based accounts? The whole "payment with roubles" shenanigans were meant as a bypass for these sanctions (again, not making this up, it was specifically the EU officials who assessed this procedure as "breach of sanctions" https://www.ft.com/content/aa0d294b-0982-4f94-a327-a93300444083 https://www.ft.com/content/aa0d294b-0982-4f94-a327-a93300444... ) > I'm not playing the victim card. Europe did what it did, knowing the probable consequences That's exactly what you are doing. Either EU decided to engage in an economic war with Russia, willing and aware of possible consequence, or "evil Russia unexpectedly stopped dealing with us" - pick one, both is doublethink. > All I'm saying is that it was Russia who stopped pumping the gas, not Europe. That is quite an ironic statement, given all the background of the Nord Stream 2 story. > maybe people will forget that that Russia is invading Ukraine for the 3rd time in the last 10 years When you start to remembering things that didn't actually happen - it's a bad sign, man. Sorry, I just had too many conversations like that, discussing the collapse of the Ukrainian government and all the following events and each time it boils down to dehumanising huge chunks of Ukrainian population that was not happy about the fact that their elected government (try overlaying Ukraine's 2010 election map on the map of the present conflict) was brought down. > I believe she just tries to whitewash herself. I doubt that anyone around the world, besides a small European corner, sees it as whitewashing and not as legitimising Russia's actions. You can't act like a guarantor of peace and then confess that you were totally lying without hurting your credibility. Just think how this looks from an outsider's perspective: Russia claims that Ukraine wants to genocide people of Donetsk and isn't going to resolve this peacefully with Minks agreements as it promised to, and then European leaders go "yeah, we were totally preparing Ukraine for war all while dragging time under the guise of a peace agreement".

The_Colonel 3y ago
> Gazprom was specifically sanctioned as a government-related entity. Gazprom was sanctioned in February 2022, Bulgaria was cut off from Russian gas in September 2022, with most other countries still buying Russian gas for months. Why specifically Bulgaria (whose role in freezing the assets was minimal) and why 6 months later? There's simply no connection to the frozen assets. > Either EU decided to engage in an economic war with Russia, willing and aware of possible consequence That's what I've been saying since my first comment from this thread - EU engages in economic war, but cutting out the gas was not an EU action, it's the Russian retaliation. > When you start to remembering things that didn't actually happen - it's a bad sign, man. Wait, you're claiming that Russia did not invade Ukraine? > You can't act like a guarantor of peace and then confess that you were totally lying without hurting your credibility. More like an appeaser of the imperialistic invader / aggressor. > Russia claims that Ukraine wants to genocide people of Donetsk Oh right, 2013 Donetsk was the scene of a genocide while 2022 Mariupol is the face of liberation. Honestly can't fathom this doublethink.
- foverzar 3y ago
  > Bulgaria was cut off from Russian gas in September 2022, with most other countries still buying Russian gas for months. Why specifically Bulgaria (whose role in freezing the assets was minimal) and why 6 months later? Google tells me that it was April, not September. I assume September was when the long-term contract had expired. Google also tells me that the payment scheme was finalised by Russia also in April. I also see that it wasn't "specifically Bulgaria", but also Poland, and by that time a few of other European countries had already switched to a new scheme. So no, there is nothing specific about Bulgaria. > That's what I've been saying since my first comment from this thread - EU engages in economic war, but cutting out the gas was not an EU action, it's the Russian retaliation. So let me get this straight: when you block your credit card and e.g. Spotify stops providing a service to you - is it a normal and expected business practice, or is it a sinister retaliation? EU leaders just plainly shot Europe in a foot and now try to shift responsibility on evil Russia, as it totally should have continued to pump gas for free. > Wait, you're claiming that Russia did not invade Ukraine? Well not 3 times. If you count it like that, that means you dismiss and ignore the revolution, the civil war and all the people who were not happy about the fact that some mob had stolen their country. > More like an appeaser of the imperialistic invader / aggressor. "imperialism" in this case is merely a narrative to dismiss the actual substantial causes for the war. Imperialists don't plead for peace agreements in a wake of war. > Oh right, 2013 Donetsk was the scene of a genocide while 2022 Mariupol is the face of liberation. Honestly can't fathom this doublethink. That's because you are making wrong assumptions here. First of all, it's not some childish tale of oppression and liberation and thankfully back in 2013 Ukraine was not successful, so Donetsk didn't turn into a scene of genocide in its common sense. Secondly, it's one thing to invade a country unprovoked, and it is a completely different thing to push the frontlines away from your borders and people who associate themselves with you onto the people who are gathering strength for their "final solution of Donetsk problem" all while acting like they are totally peaceful good guys (well not really, only on the higher political levels). It's just... Remember when Macron had leaked the private conversation he had with Putin just before the war, where Putin said that Zelensky isn't going to fulfil Minks agreements and is preparing for war, and Macron replied something along the lines of "have faith and patience". Remember how everyone was like "hurr-durr, stoopid Russia, we see through your bullshit"? Well now it turns out that Putin was telling the truth and Macron was full of shit in a room full of journalists. What the hell? And let's be honest, it's not 2013 Donetsk, it's 2013-2022 Donetsk. Enough time for a child to be born and grow up enough to go to school, without ever in their life knowing peace and not war - go figure which is more tragic.

The_Colonel 3y ago

> Gazprom was specifically sanctioned as a government-related entity. Gazprom was sanctioned in February 2022, Bulgaria was cut off from Russian gas in September 2022, with most other countries still buying Russian gas for months. Why specifically Bulgaria (whose role in freezing the assets was minimal) and why 6 months later? There's simply no connection to the frozen assets. > Either EU decided to engage in an economic war with Russia, willing and aware of possible consequence That's what I've been saying since my first comment from this thread - EU engages in economic war, but cutting out the gas was not an EU action, it's the Russian retaliation. > When you start to remembering things that didn't actually happen - it's a bad sign, man. Wait, you're claiming that Russia did not invade Ukraine? > You can't act like a guarantor of peace and then confess that you were totally lying without hurting your credibility. More like an appeaser of the imperialistic invader / aggressor. > Russia claims that Ukraine wants to genocide people of Donetsk Oh right, 2013 Donetsk was the scene of a genocide while 2022 Mariupol is the face of liberation. Honestly can't fathom this doublethink.

foverzar 3y ago
> Bulgaria was cut off from Russian gas in September 2022, with most other countries still buying Russian gas for months. Why specifically Bulgaria (whose role in freezing the assets was minimal) and why 6 months later? Google tells me that it was April, not September. I assume September was when the long-term contract had expired. Google also tells me that the payment scheme was finalised by Russia also in April. I also see that it wasn't "specifically Bulgaria", but also Poland, and by that time a few of other European countries had already switched to a new scheme. So no, there is nothing specific about Bulgaria. > That's what I've been saying since my first comment from this thread - EU engages in economic war, but cutting out the gas was not an EU action, it's the Russian retaliation. So let me get this straight: when you block your credit card and e.g. Spotify stops providing a service to you - is it a normal and expected business practice, or is it a sinister retaliation? EU leaders just plainly shot Europe in a foot and now try to shift responsibility on evil Russia, as it totally should have continued to pump gas for free. > Wait, you're claiming that Russia did not invade Ukraine? Well not 3 times. If you count it like that, that means you dismiss and ignore the revolution, the civil war and all the people who were not happy about the fact that some mob had stolen their country. > More like an appeaser of the imperialistic invader / aggressor. "imperialism" in this case is merely a narrative to dismiss the actual substantial causes for the war. Imperialists don't plead for peace agreements in a wake of war. > Oh right, 2013 Donetsk was the scene of a genocide while 2022 Mariupol is the face of liberation. Honestly can't fathom this doublethink. That's because you are making wrong assumptions here. First of all, it's not some childish tale of oppression and liberation and thankfully back in 2013 Ukraine was not successful, so Donetsk didn't turn into a scene of genocide in its common sense. Secondly, it's one thing to invade a country unprovoked, and it is a completely different thing to push the frontlines away from your borders and people who associate themselves with you onto the people who are gathering strength for their "final solution of Donetsk problem" all while acting like they are totally peaceful good guys (well not really, only on the higher political levels). It's just... Remember when Macron had leaked the private conversation he had with Putin just before the war, where Putin said that Zelensky isn't going to fulfil Minks agreements and is preparing for war, and Macron replied something along the lines of "have faith and patience". Remember how everyone was like "hurr-durr, stoopid Russia, we see through your bullshit"? Well now it turns out that Putin was telling the truth and Macron was full of shit in a room full of journalists. What the hell? And let's be honest, it's not 2013 Donetsk, it's 2013-2022 Donetsk. Enough time for a child to be born and grow up enough to go to school, without ever in their life knowing peace and not war - go figure which is more tragic.