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Wondering… Is it possible to make tiny refineries for say a town or area? So locally produced or is that a environmental nightmare?

by prox 4y ago

Tade0 4y ago
There's a refinery next to one of the highways exiting Vienna, Austria: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.147145,16.5005479,3a,75y,168.57h,95.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shsa0Otpyptoy36k2dWlkuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@48.147145,16.5005479,3a,75y,168... People live on the other side of that highway, so I guess it's possible, but I used to drive through that area on a regular basis and the smell hard to forget. Apart from that such facilities need to be large to be cost-effective.
actionfromafar 4y ago
Many engines can be converted to run on ethanol.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  This gets thrown out quite a bit but I don't really buy it. If it is not designed for alcohol, it probably isn't going to work. Alcohol has too many weird interactions with stuff like aluminum.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Many countries are running on part-ethanol already; the UK is on "E10" (up to 10%)
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      partial ethanol and full alcohol are not even close.
      - bluGill 4y ago
        Close enough. E10 is enough to see most of the issues you will see with pure Ethanol. Most engines just need to run is different fuel maps. ideally you would make other changes (increase the compression ratio), but they are expensive.
        actionfromafar 4y ago
        Some engines (SAAB, I'm looking at you) will detect knocks and adapt the map on the fly. Then, there's the more insane stuff: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1024086_ethanol-powered-saab-diesel-on-display-in-sweden https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1024086_ethanol-powered-...
    - johncalvinyoung 4y ago
      most gasoline available in the eastern USA is E10. I go out of my way to get E0 for a vintage high-performance vehicle I drive on occasion, it's noticeably happier without the ethanol, even if it can drive on E10 without damage.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    Which was why I didn't say "all" or anything like that. But basically a lot of engines from Ford and Volvo can run on ethanol. Any old iron block can if you replace pipes and hoses. And so on.
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      Sure, if you rebuild an engine to run on ethanol it'll run on ethanol.
      - actionfromafar 4y ago
        Which is why I said converted. The wrong kind of rubber will get brittle from ethanol. But for an iron block, it's not rocket science. Any shade tree mechanic could do it.
pjc50 4y ago
It's not economic and it's both an environmental and safety nightmare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buncefield_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buncefield_fire "largest peacetime explosion in Europe" I live in Edinburgh, and there's regular complaints about flaring from the Mossmorran refinery, which lights up the night sky, produces smoke, and is incredibly loud.
- prox 4y ago
  Wow, that’s a gigantic fire right there. So it seems local refineries are not very interesting.
Workaccount2 4y ago
It makes orders of magnitude more sense to have one centralized large refinery and then many dispersed holding tanks to distribute fuel. This model may sound familiar.

Wondering… Is it possible to make tiny refineries for say a town or area? So locally produced or is that a environmental nightmare?

by prox 4y ago

Wondering… Is it possible to make tiny refineries for say a town or area? So locally produced or is that a environmental nightmare?

Tade0 4y ago

There's a refinery next to one of the highways exiting Vienna, Austria: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.147145,16.5005479,3a,75y,168.57h,95.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shsa0Otpyptoy36k2dWlkuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@48.147145,16.5005479,3a,75y,168... People live on the other side of that highway, so I guess it's possible, but I used to drive through that area on a regular basis and the smell hard to forget. Apart from that such facilities need to be large to be cost-effective.

actionfromafar 4y ago

Many engines can be converted to run on ethanol.

sidewndr46 4y ago
This gets thrown out quite a bit but I don't really buy it. If it is not designed for alcohol, it probably isn't going to work. Alcohol has too many weird interactions with stuff like aluminum.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Many countries are running on part-ethanol already; the UK is on "E10" (up to 10%)
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    partial ethanol and full alcohol are not even close.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      Close enough. E10 is enough to see most of the issues you will see with pure Ethanol. Most engines just need to run is different fuel maps. ideally you would make other changes (increase the compression ratio), but they are expensive.
      - actionfromafar 4y ago
        Some engines (SAAB, I'm looking at you) will detect knocks and adapt the map on the fly. Then, there's the more insane stuff: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1024086_ethanol-powered-saab-diesel-on-display-in-sweden https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1024086_ethanol-powered-...
  - johncalvinyoung 4y ago
    most gasoline available in the eastern USA is E10. I go out of my way to get E0 for a vintage high-performance vehicle I drive on occasion, it's noticeably happier without the ethanol, even if it can drive on E10 without damage.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  Which was why I didn't say "all" or anything like that. But basically a lot of engines from Ford and Volvo can run on ethanol. Any old iron block can if you replace pipes and hoses. And so on.
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    Sure, if you rebuild an engine to run on ethanol it'll run on ethanol.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      Which is why I said converted. The wrong kind of rubber will get brittle from ethanol. But for an iron block, it's not rocket science. Any shade tree mechanic could do it.

pjc50 4y ago

It's not economic and it's both an environmental and safety nightmare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buncefield_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buncefield_fire "largest peacetime explosion in Europe" I live in Edinburgh, and there's regular complaints about flaring from the Mossmorran refinery, which lights up the night sky, produces smoke, and is incredibly loud.

prox 4y ago
Wow, that’s a gigantic fire right there. So it seems local refineries are not very interesting.

Workaccount2 4y ago

It makes orders of magnitude more sense to have one centralized large refinery and then many dispersed holding tanks to distribute fuel. This model may sound familiar.