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Various theoretical energy densities of batteries and gasoline: lead acid 123 Wh/kg lithium ion 250 Wh/kg zinc-oxyg

Various theoretical energy densities of batteries and gasoline: lead acid 123 Wh/kg lithium ion 250 Wh/kg zinc-oxygen 1,084 Wh/kg sodium-oxygen 1,605 Wh/kg lithium-sulfur 2,600 Wh/kg magnesium-oxygen 6,800 Wh/kg aluminium-oxygen 8,100 Wh/kg lithium-air 11,140 Wh/kg gasoline 12,700 Wh/kg from 2022, Asad A. Naqvi et. al., Aprotic lithium air batteries with oxygen-selective membranes, Table 1, https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40243-021-00205-w https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40243-021-00205-w

oblio 4y ago
I wonder how close to mass production those intermediary technologies are. Bumping the energy density closer to something like lithium-sulfur would probably make 95% of ICE-based technology scrap heap tech.
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  Iron-air batteries (1,200 Wh/kg), and in general metal-air [1], might bring a surprise after 2024: December 2022, "Form Energy will site first American iron-air battery manufacturing plant in Weirton, West Virginia" [2]. [1] 2017, Yanguang Li, Jun Lu, Metal–Air Batteries: Will They Be the Future Electrochemical Energy Storage Device of Choice? https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.7b00119 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.7b00119 Betteridge's law of headlines answers "no", but good overview. [2] https://formenergy.com/west-virginia-governor-jim-justice-announces-form-energy-will-site-first-american-battery-manufacturing-plant-in-weirton-creating-hundreds-of-jobs/ https://formenergy.com/west-virginia-governor-jim-justice-an...
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    The various "-air" batteries tend to have major downsides... They tend to get heavier as they discharge. They usually aren't rechargeable (or if they are, only a few times or with much lower energy densities). They tend to self-discharge within a few weeks of non-use.
    - ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
      Yes, there are downsides, as always in engineering, it's a matter of managing the compromises for the current implementation and researching better solutions for the next iteration.
    - flavius29663 4y ago
      and I think they can't output as much current like the current batteries too.
- DesiLurker 4y ago
  its worse actually for ICE because you are probably only accounting for engine efficiency but there are also transmission losses to the wheel. Further all the 3000 or so component of ICE weight fair bit too. I have not seen any analysis on combine energy to the wheel/Kg comparison between ICE & EVs but I'd bet it gets significantly worse for IC cars even at 500wh/Kg.
yread 4y ago
And Uranium-235 about 1GWh/kg EDIT: this is for nuclear fuel enriched to 3% in a normal (not breeder) reactor 35000 MJ per 10g pellet https://whatisnuclear.com/energy-density.html https://whatisnuclear.com/energy-density.html Only a tiny fraction of the total energy is actually used
- ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
  Uranium-235 is around 24 GWh/kg [1] (24,000,000,000 Wh). [1] https://www.euronuclear.org/glossary/fuel-comparison/ https://www.euronuclear.org/glossary/fuel-comparison/
- travisporter 4y ago
  Whoa so… 100kwh is 40mg! 3grains of sand to run a Tesla https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=100kwh%2F%282.5+gwh%2Fkg%29 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=100kwh%2F%282.5+gwh%2Fk...
  - m3kw9 4y ago
    Except a lot more is released at once so it will accelerate like a jet engine on every stop sign
    - travisporter 3y ago
      Haha yes I did not think about that. There’s no throttling there
- the_duke 4y ago
  You need to account for all the weight required to turn the radiation into electricity. That'll make the numbers ... a bit different.
  - mrtesthah 4y ago
    Not necessarily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_ge...
mlindner 4y ago
Lithium ion is already over 250 Wh/kg so that calls into great suspect the rest of the numbers.
- ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
  Not sure what over 250 Wh/kg means. Wikipedia mentions Specific energy 100–265 Wh/kg and Energy density 250–693 Wh/L quoting papers from 2010/1 and 2016/7 [1]. Other sources mention similar numbers (100-265 Wh/kg or 250-670 Wh/L) [2], although the research is ongoing: "Tesla’s new 4680 cells have an energy density of 272-296 Wh/kg and which is considered very high by current standards" [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery [2] https://www.cei.washington.edu/education/science-of-solar/battery-technology/#:~:text=100%2D265%20Wh/kg%20or%20250%2D670%20Wh/L https://www.cei.washington.edu/education/science-of-solar/ba... [3] https://thedriven.io/2023/04/03/scientists-hail-new-battery-with-4-times-energy-density-of-lithium-ion/ https://thedriven.io/2023/04/03/scientists-hail-new-battery-...
  - mlindner 3y ago
    Thanks for the sources, as said this shows the article is highly suspect if your "maximum theoretical energy density" figure already is beaten by in-the-market devices.
AtlasBarfed 3y ago
Doesn't gasoline habe to (typically) go through carnot efficiency limits though when it combusts? IIRC, EV motors are 90% efficient with battery power --> road power conversion. A typical ICE engine is, what, 30% efficient and maybe a bit more with good turbo design. So practically gasoline is about 4000 Wh/kg?

oblio 4y ago

I wonder how close to mass production those intermediary technologies are. Bumping the energy density closer to something like lithium-sulfur would probably make 95% of ICE-based technology scrap heap tech.

ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
Iron-air batteries (1,200 Wh/kg), and in general metal-air [1], might bring a surprise after 2024: December 2022, "Form Energy will site first American iron-air battery manufacturing plant in Weirton, West Virginia" [2]. [1] 2017, Yanguang Li, Jun Lu, Metal–Air Batteries: Will They Be the Future Electrochemical Energy Storage Device of Choice? https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.7b00119 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.7b00119 Betteridge's law of headlines answers "no", but good overview. [2] https://formenergy.com/west-virginia-governor-jim-justice-announces-form-energy-will-site-first-american-battery-manufacturing-plant-in-weirton-creating-hundreds-of-jobs/ https://formenergy.com/west-virginia-governor-jim-justice-an...
- londons_explore 4y ago
  The various "-air" batteries tend to have major downsides... They tend to get heavier as they discharge. They usually aren't rechargeable (or if they are, only a few times or with much lower energy densities). They tend to self-discharge within a few weeks of non-use.
  - ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
    Yes, there are downsides, as always in engineering, it's a matter of managing the compromises for the current implementation and researching better solutions for the next iteration.
  - flavius29663 4y ago
    and I think they can't output as much current like the current batteries too.
DesiLurker 4y ago
its worse actually for ICE because you are probably only accounting for engine efficiency but there are also transmission losses to the wheel. Further all the 3000 or so component of ICE weight fair bit too. I have not seen any analysis on combine energy to the wheel/Kg comparison between ICE & EVs but I'd bet it gets significantly worse for IC cars even at 500wh/Kg.

yread 4y ago

And Uranium-235 about 1GWh/kg EDIT: this is for nuclear fuel enriched to 3% in a normal (not breeder) reactor 35000 MJ per 10g pellet https://whatisnuclear.com/energy-density.html https://whatisnuclear.com/energy-density.html Only a tiny fraction of the total energy is actually used

ly3xqhl8g9 4y ago
Uranium-235 is around 24 GWh/kg [1] (24,000,000,000 Wh). [1] https://www.euronuclear.org/glossary/fuel-comparison/ https://www.euronuclear.org/glossary/fuel-comparison/
travisporter 4y ago
Whoa so… 100kwh is 40mg! 3grains of sand to run a Tesla https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=100kwh%2F%282.5+gwh%2Fkg%29 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=100kwh%2F%282.5+gwh%2Fk...
- m3kw9 4y ago
  Except a lot more is released at once so it will accelerate like a jet engine on every stop sign
  - travisporter 3y ago
    Haha yes I did not think about that. There’s no throttling there
the_duke 4y ago
You need to account for all the weight required to turn the radiation into electricity. That'll make the numbers ... a bit different.
- mrtesthah 4y ago
  Not necessarily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_ge...

mlindner 4y ago

Lithium ion is already over 250 Wh/kg so that calls into great suspect the rest of the numbers.

ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
Not sure what over 250 Wh/kg means. Wikipedia mentions Specific energy 100–265 Wh/kg and Energy density 250–693 Wh/L quoting papers from 2010/1 and 2016/7 [1]. Other sources mention similar numbers (100-265 Wh/kg or 250-670 Wh/L) [2], although the research is ongoing: "Tesla’s new 4680 cells have an energy density of 272-296 Wh/kg and which is considered very high by current standards" [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery [2] https://www.cei.washington.edu/education/science-of-solar/battery-technology/#:~:text=100%2D265%20Wh/kg%20or%20250%2D670%20Wh/L https://www.cei.washington.edu/education/science-of-solar/ba... [3] https://thedriven.io/2023/04/03/scientists-hail-new-battery-with-4-times-energy-density-of-lithium-ion/ https://thedriven.io/2023/04/03/scientists-hail-new-battery-...
- mlindner 3y ago
  Thanks for the sources, as said this shows the article is highly suspect if your "maximum theoretical energy density" figure already is beaten by in-the-market devices.

AtlasBarfed 3y ago

Doesn't gasoline habe to (typically) go through carnot efficiency limits though when it combusts? IIRC, EV motors are 90% efficient with battery power --> road power conversion. A typical ICE engine is, what, 30% efficient and maybe a bit more with good turbo design. So practically gasoline is about 4000 Wh/kg?