5 ms·

> Something tells me the usual critics still won't be satisfied, but these are both a big deal and tell a story about listening to the improvements that were de

by voytec 4y ago

> Something tells me the usual critics still won't be satisfied, but these are both a big deal and tell a story about listening to the improvements that were desired by users. Critic here. apt is still handicapped and snap is still being pushed down users' throats for profit. Improvement of undesired change resulting in less user control than the state before undesired change is an act of pulling the wool over people's eyes. snap is an unfriendly garbage with which you never know if you should use `--classic` without trial and error. Doing small fixes to this garbage doesn't fix the fiasco that handicapping apt to push snap was.

wmf 4y ago
Install Debian.
- dcow 4y ago
  Ubuntu feels like the macOS of Linux distros. Debian still feels like... a Linux distro. I haven't used Ubuntu in awhile though maybe I should try again just to compare to my Debian machine.
  - pmontra 4y ago
    I switched from Ubuntu 20.04 to Debian 11 at the end of 2022. If you gave me the updated laptop without telling me anything I'm not sure that I'd notice any difference.
    - ithrow 4y ago
      How do you handle chromium in Debian stable? It always lags behind significantly behind chromium/chrome releases.
      - capableweb 4y ago
        The trick: Don't use Debian Stable, use Testing. Despite it's name compared to "stable", Testing is pretty stable in my experience. - Chrome Stable - 112.0.5615.137 - Debian Bullseye (stable) - 108.0.5359.94 - Debian Bookworm (testing) - 112.0.5615.49 Most people I know who run Debian for personal desktops uses Testing, not Stable. Vice-versa for servers.
        doubled112 4y ago
        The security repo that is added by default has newer Chromium packages https://wiki.debian.org/Chromium https://wiki.debian.org/Chromium https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/chromium https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/c... - buster 90.0.4430.212-1~deb10u1 - bullseye 108.0.5359.94-1~deb11u1 - bullseye (security) 112.0.5615.121-1~deb11u1 - bookworm 112.0.5615.49-2 - sid 112.0.5615.138-1
      - skovati 4y ago
        My philosophy has been to let the distro package manager handle system packages (kernel, OpenSSL, etc) but then use flatpak [1] to install user progs like Chromium and VSCode so I get bleeding edge releases and sandboxing. [1] https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.chromium.Chromium https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.chromium.Chromium
        wmf 4y ago
        And by bleeding edge you mean stable.
      - forty 4y ago
        I use Firefox ESR with Debian stable + backports, and the internet seems to work as far as I can tell (I'm not doing anything fancy with it though)
      - pmontra 4y ago
        I use Firefox and I switch to Google Chrome for the very few cases when it's too difficult to make a web site work with Firefox plus all the privacy addons I added to it, maybe not every month. I think I downloaded the installer from Google and I got this deb [arch=amd64] https://dl.google.com/linux/chrome/deb/ stable main in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/google-chrome.list now.
- monsieurgaufre 4y ago
  That's what i don't get about all the snap complaining. If you know what a snap is, you're already an outlier. If it bothers the user so much, why don't they go straight to the source to begin with (aka Debian)? You can get to the exact same setup.
  - silisili 4y ago
    I haven't tried Debian in a decade or so, in fairness, but it used to be the case that - a) ubuntu had newer packages b) ubuntu had a much nicer installer c) ubuntu had nice defaults/polish on the ui and fonts Maybe Debian has changed since, but that's why I'd been hesitant to install it in the past.
    - zokier 4y ago
      Ubuntu lts and debian release on pretty comparable cycles, so the newer packages doesn't really hold anymore. Debian installer is pretty straightforward these days imho, but I might be just used to it. Ubuntu has done more customization on the DE compared to pretty much everyone, with Debian you get closer to vanilla gnome experience. This can be seen both as pro and con.
    - doubled112 4y ago
      The current stable Debian (11) is two years old. Of course it has older packages than distros released more recently. Debian 12 is newer than 22.04 right now, and probably about the same as Ubuntu 23.04. It's in hard freeze, and soon to be released though. The Debian live DVDs are using the Calamares installer now, if that's more your style. Debian's normal installer is still the same as it always was. Debian is still more default, you set it up for yourself than Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu's defaults, but I know what you mean. GNOME's defaults are better now, if that helps out.
    - forty 4y ago
      For a/ you can use Debian testing and I think it's more or less the same. For b/ I don't install my OS often enough that it matters that much to me (I think on a laptop I went from Ubuntu 9.04 to 18.04 without ever re installing) These days I like old and stable and use Debian stable + backport (mostly for kernel) even for desktop, and I'm really happy :)
- NexRebular 4y ago
  Or run ubuntu as lx-zone on illumos.
- unmole 4y ago
  Debian doesn't really fill the same niche as Ubuntu desktop. I personally switched to Fedora and I'm quite happy with it.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    It is trivially easy to install a DE on Debian. That said, I'm on Fedora as a daily driver and it's pretty good.
silisili 4y ago
Same exact complaint. I'm fine with snaps existing. I'm even fine with it being the default. But I should be able to easily avoid using them, and apt sure as hell shouldn't be tricking people into them. The fact that they had to even do that shows that people didn't want them.
- selivanovp 4y ago
  Not really. Apt installs snaps in some cases not because they’re tricking people, but because said package is either abandoned by Canonical team like firefox (Mozilla creates snaps for it, so neither Canonical nor Mozilla have to build debs for all the Ubuntu flavors and supported versions anymore), or created so people can help Canonical to test technology like it was with gnome-calculator several years ago.
  - saurik 4y ago
    Then the package should just not exist in apt and you can go install it with snap instead? I'm just learning about this idea that I might use apt and somehow end up with a snap from this thread :(.
- npteljes 4y ago
  Apt does this "tricking" with other stuff too, often just distributing an installer that contacts a third party endpoint which downloads the real installer.
  - bravetraveler 4y ago
    How is the dpkg database remotely sane if this is the case? The package manager is the installer, and the package is the archive to install. This seems ridiculous
    - npteljes 4y ago
      To me, it doesn't make sense for apt the database, but it makes sense for apt the universal installer.
tzs 4y ago
How is apt handicapped? I Googled but didn't find anything.
- nixcraft 4y ago
  They are talking about forcing snap even when you type `apt install firefox` or `apt install lxd`. The Ubuntu will redirect to the snap package (e.g. `apt install firefox` -> `snap install firefox`).
  - grumpyprole 4y ago
    Wow that's pretty misleading
- phil9909 4y ago
  One example: `apt install firefox` installs the snap variant (which the user probably just uninstalled to replace it with the apt variant, as it is installed by default.)
robocat 4y ago
> snap is still being pushed down users' throats for profit Unless you are paying for Ubuntu, there is little point complaining. Change distro if you don’t like what they are doing - there’s plenty of choice out there. Alternatively pay for Windows 11 and get way more advertisements!

by voytec 4y ago

wmf 4y ago

Install Debian.

dcow 4y ago
Ubuntu feels like the macOS of Linux distros. Debian still feels like... a Linux distro. I haven't used Ubuntu in awhile though maybe I should try again just to compare to my Debian machine.
- pmontra 4y ago
  I switched from Ubuntu 20.04 to Debian 11 at the end of 2022. If you gave me the updated laptop without telling me anything I'm not sure that I'd notice any difference.
  - ithrow 4y ago
    How do you handle chromium in Debian stable? It always lags behind significantly behind chromium/chrome releases.
    - capableweb 4y ago
      The trick: Don't use Debian Stable, use Testing. Despite it's name compared to "stable", Testing is pretty stable in my experience. - Chrome Stable - 112.0.5615.137 - Debian Bullseye (stable) - 108.0.5359.94 - Debian Bookworm (testing) - 112.0.5615.49 Most people I know who run Debian for personal desktops uses Testing, not Stable. Vice-versa for servers.
      - doubled112 4y ago
        The security repo that is added by default has newer Chromium packages https://wiki.debian.org/Chromium https://wiki.debian.org/Chromium https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/chromium https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/c... - buster 90.0.4430.212-1~deb10u1 - bullseye 108.0.5359.94-1~deb11u1 - bullseye (security) 112.0.5615.121-1~deb11u1 - bookworm 112.0.5615.49-2 - sid 112.0.5615.138-1
    - skovati 4y ago
      My philosophy has been to let the distro package manager handle system packages (kernel, OpenSSL, etc) but then use flatpak [1] to install user progs like Chromium and VSCode so I get bleeding edge releases and sandboxing. [1] https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.chromium.Chromium https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.chromium.Chromium
      - wmf 4y ago
        And by bleeding edge you mean stable.
    - forty 4y ago
      I use Firefox ESR with Debian stable + backports, and the internet seems to work as far as I can tell (I'm not doing anything fancy with it though)
    - pmontra 4y ago
      I use Firefox and I switch to Google Chrome for the very few cases when it's too difficult to make a web site work with Firefox plus all the privacy addons I added to it, maybe not every month. I think I downloaded the installer from Google and I got this deb [arch=amd64] https://dl.google.com/linux/chrome/deb/ stable main in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/google-chrome.list now.
monsieurgaufre 4y ago
That's what i don't get about all the snap complaining. If you know what a snap is, you're already an outlier. If it bothers the user so much, why don't they go straight to the source to begin with (aka Debian)? You can get to the exact same setup.
- silisili 4y ago
  I haven't tried Debian in a decade or so, in fairness, but it used to be the case that - a) ubuntu had newer packages b) ubuntu had a much nicer installer c) ubuntu had nice defaults/polish on the ui and fonts Maybe Debian has changed since, but that's why I'd been hesitant to install it in the past.
  - zokier 4y ago
    Ubuntu lts and debian release on pretty comparable cycles, so the newer packages doesn't really hold anymore. Debian installer is pretty straightforward these days imho, but I might be just used to it. Ubuntu has done more customization on the DE compared to pretty much everyone, with Debian you get closer to vanilla gnome experience. This can be seen both as pro and con.
  - doubled112 4y ago
    The current stable Debian (11) is two years old. Of course it has older packages than distros released more recently. Debian 12 is newer than 22.04 right now, and probably about the same as Ubuntu 23.04. It's in hard freeze, and soon to be released though. The Debian live DVDs are using the Calamares installer now, if that's more your style. Debian's normal installer is still the same as it always was. Debian is still more default, you set it up for yourself than Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu's defaults, but I know what you mean. GNOME's defaults are better now, if that helps out.
  - forty 4y ago
    For a/ you can use Debian testing and I think it's more or less the same. For b/ I don't install my OS often enough that it matters that much to me (I think on a laptop I went from Ubuntu 9.04 to 18.04 without ever re installing) These days I like old and stable and use Debian stable + backport (mostly for kernel) even for desktop, and I'm really happy :)
NexRebular 4y ago
Or run ubuntu as lx-zone on illumos.
unmole 4y ago
Debian doesn't really fill the same niche as Ubuntu desktop. I personally switched to Fedora and I'm quite happy with it.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  It is trivially easy to install a DE on Debian. That said, I'm on Fedora as a daily driver and it's pretty good.

silisili 4y ago

Same exact complaint. I'm fine with snaps existing. I'm even fine with it being the default. But I should be able to easily avoid using them, and apt sure as hell shouldn't be tricking people into them. The fact that they had to even do that shows that people didn't want them.

selivanovp 4y ago
Not really. Apt installs snaps in some cases not because they’re tricking people, but because said package is either abandoned by Canonical team like firefox (Mozilla creates snaps for it, so neither Canonical nor Mozilla have to build debs for all the Ubuntu flavors and supported versions anymore), or created so people can help Canonical to test technology like it was with gnome-calculator several years ago.
- saurik 4y ago
  Then the package should just not exist in apt and you can go install it with snap instead? I'm just learning about this idea that I might use apt and somehow end up with a snap from this thread :(.
npteljes 4y ago
Apt does this "tricking" with other stuff too, often just distributing an installer that contacts a third party endpoint which downloads the real installer.
- bravetraveler 4y ago
  How is the dpkg database remotely sane if this is the case? The package manager is the installer, and the package is the archive to install. This seems ridiculous
  - npteljes 4y ago
    To me, it doesn't make sense for apt the database, but it makes sense for apt the universal installer.

tzs 4y ago

How is apt handicapped? I Googled but didn't find anything.

nixcraft 4y ago
They are talking about forcing snap even when you type `apt install firefox` or `apt install lxd`. The Ubuntu will redirect to the snap package (e.g. `apt install firefox` -> `snap install firefox`).
- grumpyprole 4y ago
  Wow that's pretty misleading
phil9909 4y ago
One example: `apt install firefox` installs the snap variant (which the user probably just uninstalled to replace it with the apt variant, as it is installed by default.)

robocat 4y ago

> snap is still being pushed down users' throats for profit Unless you are paying for Ubuntu, there is little point complaining. Change distro if you don’t like what they are doing - there’s plenty of choice out there. Alternatively pay for Windows 11 and get way more advertisements!