4 ms·

I have a FWD and AWD variant of the same car in my driveway and call bullshit. Why is it so hard to believe that a product that advertises 30-50% improvement i

I have a FWD and AWD variant of the same car in my driveway and call bullshit. Why is it so hard to believe that a product that advertises 30-50% improvement in traction results in a lesser improvement than doubling the area over which tractive force is applied? I used to drink the snow tire kool-aid until I bought a set for the FWD car of and realized that better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability don't actually help you because being able to controllably put power to the ground is still the bottleneck in the "is it reasonable to drive in these conditions" equation by a mile and while they help they are nowhere near a replacement for doubling the contact patch that force goes through. Sure, they get me a little bit of margin to be an idiot and come into turns too hot or stop short but I wasn't really doing that stuff in the snow anyway so the benefit is lost on me (and people adapt their driving style to the performance they have available so how big is the benefit really?) and they still don't make the FWD car climb my damn street like the AWD car does so I don't buy them anymore. I keep chains in the trunk for the really bad days. The FWD/RWD nit picking is mostly irrelevant IMO because any fundamental difference is far less than the vehicle to vehicle difference within or outside a given category. Better handling in the dry more or less directly leads to better handling of the same type in the snow. A RWD box truck will out hill climb a FWD minivan but the latter will out corner the former and a Miata and hot FWD hatch will be better than both at everything.

SECProto 3y ago
Does your AWD car with summer tires brake better in icy conditions than your FWD? > better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability don't actually help you because being able to controllably put power to the ground is still the bottleneck in the "is it reasonable to drive in these conditions" equation I take this to mean the answer is no. I drive in serious winter conditions, and AWD with winter tires is great, but it doesn't matter how many wheels are applying traction when you slide into a ditch.
- dsfyu404ed 3y ago
  Of course something on harder tires will not brake and turn as well as something on softer tires. The reduced ability to stop and turn has lead to in my snow driving experience, far, far fewer "that could have easily gone worse" situations than a lack of ability to gracefully put power to the ground. I don't get why everyone obsesses over stopping and turning and shills snow tires. There's a reason that everyone and their brother buys an AWD vehicle and far fewer people buy snow tires. Everyone(TM) can't be wrong. What I want you to tell me is why I should prioritize braking and steering if they're not the bottlenecks I encounter when driving in the snow.
  - SECProto 3y ago
    > I don't get why everyone obsesses over stopping and turning and shills snow tires. Most accidents are caused by failure to stop and failure to turn, not failure to accelerate. > There's a reason that everyone and their brother buys an AWD vehicle and far fewer people buy snow tires. You clearly live in a very different place than me - very few passenger vehicles are available with AWD (subarus, trucks, some SUVs). But everyone has snow tires. > What I want you to tell me is why I should prioritize braking and steering if they're not the bottlenecks I encounter when driving in the snow Great for you? Again, you clearly live in a place with very different conditions than I do. What about the conditions make it so that you can't accelerate, but you can turn or brake just fine?
    - Auracle 3y ago
      I live in Minnesota and very few people buy snow tires, and most balk at it. They don't realize the difference it makes. I regularly drive in conditions in my damned Camaro where the only other vehicles on the road are trucks, with some of them not being on the road anymore.
      - secabeen 3y ago
        Interestingly, I'm finding more and more standard vehicles with tires with the M+S designation on the sidewall that makes them legally Snow Tires. I don't expect these have the same performance in the midwest snow as purpose-built snow tires, but they should qualify from a legal sense for chain restrictions and the like.
explorer83 3y ago
You're not wrong in the sense that snow tires are designed first to stop you. Not to start you. But if you call snow tires on a FWD "kool-aid" I completely disagree with you there. unless maybe you bought "true" all seasons (tires where some of the tread is like a winter tire), which are still relatively new and have a lot of tread depth. Those can probably get you by OK to where you would think true snow tires aren't worth it. But once they wear I'd still take worn snow tires over them any day. Source - Worked at a large tire wholesaler. Driven multiple FWD cars with true all seasons and true winters in winter conditions.
- dsfyu404ed 3y ago
  I've lived it (these were proper studded snow tires). The improvement is there any very tangible but there's a reason I put the wife in the AWD one. I agree that tread depth is massively important in the slushy conditions that commutes in the snow devolve into. You need that depth to provide a path for the "thick water" to GTFO so you're not hydroplaning on slush.
- secabeen 3y ago
  I've seen the true all seasons more and more. Both my and my mom's car have standard tires from the manufacturer, yet both also have the M+S designation that indicates a Mud and Snow tire. Are these tires of the form you describe?
  - explorer83 3y ago
    It sounds to me like you already have picked this up but that M+S designation is kind of 'generously' applied in my opinion. At best it's relative. They will be better than a tire designed for dry pavement performance. But still range widely to how they perform compared to actual mud or snow tires.

SECProto 3y ago

Does your AWD car with summer tires brake better in icy conditions than your FWD? > better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability don't actually help you because being able to controllably put power to the ground is still the bottleneck in the "is it reasonable to drive in these conditions" equation I take this to mean the answer is no. I drive in serious winter conditions, and AWD with winter tires is great, but it doesn't matter how many wheels are applying traction when you slide into a ditch.

dsfyu404ed 3y ago
Of course something on harder tires will not brake and turn as well as something on softer tires. The reduced ability to stop and turn has lead to in my snow driving experience, far, far fewer "that could have easily gone worse" situations than a lack of ability to gracefully put power to the ground. I don't get why everyone obsesses over stopping and turning and shills snow tires. There's a reason that everyone and their brother buys an AWD vehicle and far fewer people buy snow tires. Everyone(TM) can't be wrong. What I want you to tell me is why I should prioritize braking and steering if they're not the bottlenecks I encounter when driving in the snow.
- SECProto 3y ago
  > I don't get why everyone obsesses over stopping and turning and shills snow tires. Most accidents are caused by failure to stop and failure to turn, not failure to accelerate. > There's a reason that everyone and their brother buys an AWD vehicle and far fewer people buy snow tires. You clearly live in a very different place than me - very few passenger vehicles are available with AWD (subarus, trucks, some SUVs). But everyone has snow tires. > What I want you to tell me is why I should prioritize braking and steering if they're not the bottlenecks I encounter when driving in the snow Great for you? Again, you clearly live in a place with very different conditions than I do. What about the conditions make it so that you can't accelerate, but you can turn or brake just fine?
  - Auracle 3y ago
    I live in Minnesota and very few people buy snow tires, and most balk at it. They don't realize the difference it makes. I regularly drive in conditions in my damned Camaro where the only other vehicles on the road are trucks, with some of them not being on the road anymore.
    - secabeen 3y ago
      Interestingly, I'm finding more and more standard vehicles with tires with the M+S designation on the sidewall that makes them legally Snow Tires. I don't expect these have the same performance in the midwest snow as purpose-built snow tires, but they should qualify from a legal sense for chain restrictions and the like.

explorer83 3y ago

You're not wrong in the sense that snow tires are designed first to stop you. Not to start you. But if you call snow tires on a FWD "kool-aid" I completely disagree with you there. unless maybe you bought "true" all seasons (tires where some of the tread is like a winter tire), which are still relatively new and have a lot of tread depth. Those can probably get you by OK to where you would think true snow tires aren't worth it. But once they wear I'd still take worn snow tires over them any day. Source - Worked at a large tire wholesaler. Driven multiple FWD cars with true all seasons and true winters in winter conditions.

dsfyu404ed 3y ago
I've lived it (these were proper studded snow tires). The improvement is there any very tangible but there's a reason I put the wife in the AWD one. I agree that tread depth is massively important in the slushy conditions that commutes in the snow devolve into. You need that depth to provide a path for the "thick water" to GTFO so you're not hydroplaning on slush.
secabeen 3y ago
I've seen the true all seasons more and more. Both my and my mom's car have standard tires from the manufacturer, yet both also have the M+S designation that indicates a Mud and Snow tire. Are these tires of the form you describe?
- explorer83 3y ago
  It sounds to me like you already have picked this up but that M+S designation is kind of 'generously' applied in my opinion. At best it's relative. They will be better than a tire designed for dry pavement performance. But still range widely to how they perform compared to actual mud or snow tires.