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Snow tires don't hold a candle to the doubling(!) of contact patch over which torque is transmitted that you get going from FWD/RWD to AWD and no amount of low

Snow tires don't hold a candle to the doubling(!) of contact patch over which torque is transmitted that you get going from FWD/RWD to AWD and no amount of low effort quips about steering and braking will change the fact that, among people who drive like adults, the ability to get up hills, cross snow banks where cross streets meet plowed main roads and get up to speed for a merge without anything dumb happening are the dominant factor in the "can I safely drive today" equation.

eitland 3y ago
Either I am misreading you or or we disagree wildly. AWD is better than FWD or RWD, yes, but driving in the winter without snow tires. AWD matters exactly 0 when emergency braking and little as long as you aren't driving flat and not accelerating. Snow tyres help when accelerating, braking, driving straight forward and through curves, uphill and downhill. There is a reason why snow tires are mandatory here and AWD is not.
- vkou 3y ago
  > AWD matters exactly 0 when emergency braking Correct. All cars, whether they are FWD, RWD, or AWD are All-Wheel-Brake. The most important aspect of stopping safely are your tires.
Syonyk 3y ago
> Snow tires don't hold a candle to... Yeah. They do. I've driven pretty much every combination of FWD, RWD, 4WD, and AWD, with and without snow tires, in a variety of winter conditions. The "other tires" were regular all seasons, not high performance summer tires or anything. RWD with all seasons is really bad in snow, and mine generally didn't leave the parking lot in winter, because it simply couldn't. When you can start it, put it in reverse, let the clutch out, get out, and watch a wheel turning without the car having moved an inch, it's not a good day to take that car. FWD with all seasons is better, because there's typically more weight over the drive wheels, but they're not great in snow. 4WD/AWD with all seasons (I lump them together because while there are some differences, it doesn't matter in typical snow) is far better, and hysterically fun to drive (drift all the wide corners), but it's still somewhat tricky in snow. And, yes, you do get better braking with 4WD, because the front brakes slow the rear wheels too (most of the braking force is on the front wheels, especially at initial application). The catch is that when you lock the wheels, you lock all four and have zero guidance, vs just locking the front and at least continuing mostly straight (or, usually, whatever the local downhill is). FWD or RWD with snow tires is, by far, better than AWD with all seasons. And then AWD/4WD with snow tires is just a case of "What snow?"
- dsfyu404ed 3y ago
  I have a FWD and AWD variant of the same car in my driveway and call bullshit. Why is it so hard to believe that a product that advertises 30-50% improvement in traction results in a lesser improvement than doubling the area over which tractive force is applied? I used to drink the snow tire kool-aid until I bought a set for the FWD car of and realized that better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability don't actually help you because being able to controllably put power to the ground is still the bottleneck in the "is it reasonable to drive in these conditions" equation by a mile and while they help they are nowhere near a replacement for doubling the contact patch that force goes through. Sure, they get me a little bit of margin to be an idiot and come into turns too hot or stop short but I wasn't really doing that stuff in the snow anyway so the benefit is lost on me (and people adapt their driving style to the performance they have available so how big is the benefit really?) and they still don't make the FWD car climb my damn street like the AWD car does so I don't buy them anymore. I keep chains in the trunk for the really bad days. The FWD/RWD nit picking is mostly irrelevant IMO because any fundamental difference is far less than the vehicle to vehicle difference within or outside a given category. Better handling in the dry more or less directly leads to better handling of the same type in the snow. A RWD box truck will out hill climb a FWD minivan but the latter will out corner the former and a Miata and hot FWD hatch will be better than both at everything.
  - SECProto 3y ago
    Does your AWD car with summer tires brake better in icy conditions than your FWD? > better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability don't actually help you because being able to controllably put power to the ground is still the bottleneck in the "is it reasonable to drive in these conditions" equation I take this to mean the answer is no. I drive in serious winter conditions, and AWD with winter tires is great, but it doesn't matter how many wheels are applying traction when you slide into a ditch.
    - dsfyu404ed 3y ago
      Of course something on harder tires will not brake and turn as well as something on softer tires. The reduced ability to stop and turn has lead to in my snow driving experience, far, far fewer "that could have easily gone worse" situations than a lack of ability to gracefully put power to the ground. I don't get why everyone obsesses over stopping and turning and shills snow tires. There's a reason that everyone and their brother buys an AWD vehicle and far fewer people buy snow tires. Everyone(TM) can't be wrong. What I want you to tell me is why I should prioritize braking and steering if they're not the bottlenecks I encounter when driving in the snow.

eitland 3y ago

Either I am misreading you or or we disagree wildly. AWD is better than FWD or RWD, yes, but driving in the winter without snow tires. AWD matters exactly 0 when emergency braking and little as long as you aren't driving flat and not accelerating. Snow tyres help when accelerating, braking, driving straight forward and through curves, uphill and downhill. There is a reason why snow tires are mandatory here and AWD is not.

vkou 3y ago
> AWD matters exactly 0 when emergency braking Correct. All cars, whether they are FWD, RWD, or AWD are All-Wheel-Brake. The most important aspect of stopping safely are your tires.

Syonyk 3y ago

> Snow tires don't hold a candle to... Yeah. They do. I've driven pretty much every combination of FWD, RWD, 4WD, and AWD, with and without snow tires, in a variety of winter conditions. The "other tires" were regular all seasons, not high performance summer tires or anything. RWD with all seasons is really bad in snow, and mine generally didn't leave the parking lot in winter, because it simply couldn't. When you can start it, put it in reverse, let the clutch out, get out, and watch a wheel turning without the car having moved an inch, it's not a good day to take that car. FWD with all seasons is better, because there's typically more weight over the drive wheels, but they're not great in snow. 4WD/AWD with all seasons (I lump them together because while there are some differences, it doesn't matter in typical snow) is far better, and hysterically fun to drive (drift all the wide corners), but it's still somewhat tricky in snow. And, yes, you do get better braking with 4WD, because the front brakes slow the rear wheels too (most of the braking force is on the front wheels, especially at initial application). The catch is that when you lock the wheels, you lock all four and have zero guidance, vs just locking the front and at least continuing mostly straight (or, usually, whatever the local downhill is). FWD or RWD with snow tires is, by far, better than AWD with all seasons. And then AWD/4WD with snow tires is just a case of "What snow?"

dsfyu404ed 3y ago
I have a FWD and AWD variant of the same car in my driveway and call bullshit. Why is it so hard to believe that a product that advertises 30-50% improvement in traction results in a lesser improvement than doubling the area over which tractive force is applied? I used to drink the snow tire kool-aid until I bought a set for the FWD car of and realized that better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability don't actually help you because being able to controllably put power to the ground is still the bottleneck in the "is it reasonable to drive in these conditions" equation by a mile and while they help they are nowhere near a replacement for doubling the contact patch that force goes through. Sure, they get me a little bit of margin to be an idiot and come into turns too hot or stop short but I wasn't really doing that stuff in the snow anyway so the benefit is lost on me (and people adapt their driving style to the performance they have available so how big is the benefit really?) and they still don't make the FWD car climb my damn street like the AWD car does so I don't buy them anymore. I keep chains in the trunk for the really bad days. The FWD/RWD nit picking is mostly irrelevant IMO because any fundamental difference is far less than the vehicle to vehicle difference within or outside a given category. Better handling in the dry more or less directly leads to better handling of the same type in the snow. A RWD box truck will out hill climb a FWD minivan but the latter will out corner the former and a Miata and hot FWD hatch will be better than both at everything.
- SECProto 3y ago
  Does your AWD car with summer tires brake better in icy conditions than your FWD? > better straight line stopping distance and cornering ability don't actually help you because being able to controllably put power to the ground is still the bottleneck in the "is it reasonable to drive in these conditions" equation I take this to mean the answer is no. I drive in serious winter conditions, and AWD with winter tires is great, but it doesn't matter how many wheels are applying traction when you slide into a ditch.
  - dsfyu404ed 3y ago
    Of course something on harder tires will not brake and turn as well as something on softer tires. The reduced ability to stop and turn has lead to in my snow driving experience, far, far fewer "that could have easily gone worse" situations than a lack of ability to gracefully put power to the ground. I don't get why everyone obsesses over stopping and turning and shills snow tires. There's a reason that everyone and their brother buys an AWD vehicle and far fewer people buy snow tires. Everyone(TM) can't be wrong. What I want you to tell me is why I should prioritize braking and steering if they're not the bottlenecks I encounter when driving in the snow.