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Textbook example of whataboutism. The fact that the US is not dunking on Saudi Arabia does not change the fact that the CCP is a murderous, genocidal, antidemo

Textbook example of whataboutism. The fact that the US is not dunking on Saudi Arabia does not change the fact that the CCP is a murderous, genocidal, antidemocratic force that needs to be contained.

mardifoufs 4y ago
Precedent isn't whataboutism. You cannot claim that the intentions of the US are to oppose dictatorships or whatever while also supporting saudi arabia. I mean, you can, but no amount of "whataboutism" accusations will make the claim credible. It's fine to just say that the US is doing it to counter a geopolitical rival, it requires a lot less mental gymnastics.
tivert 4y ago
> The fact that the US is not dunking on Saudi Arabia does not change the fact that the CCP is a murderous, genocidal, antidemocratic force that needs to be contained. IIRC, the US did in fact "dunk" on Saudi Arabia after the Khashoggi murder, which kind of screwed them when they wanted cooperation to lower oil prices that wasn't given.
DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
It's fine to criticize the Chinese government for not being democratic or for restricting freedom of speech, but it's not genocidal, and over the last several decades, it's been far less murderous and aggressive than the US government. China hasn't even fought a war in over 40 years. No amount of invocations of "whataboutism" will erase the fact that the US killed hundreds of thousands of people in an illegal war in Iraq, while China has basically kept to itself for decades.
- himinlomax 4y ago
  It's committing genocide on the Uyghur people. Of course we don't have a lot of evidenc, you'll say. Same thing useful people likely you said in the 1930s about the Holodomor. And there wasn't much evidence back then either for the same reason: communist dictatorship doing a hard lock down on journalism, and people like you to turn a blind eye to the horror.
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    It's the first "genocide" in history in which nobody was killed. The people claiming it's a "genocide" don't even claim that anyone is being killed. If you actually press them, they try to redefine the word "genocide" to mean something completely different. Words have meaning, and a word as important as "genocide" should not be thrown around in bad faith as a polemical tool.
    - himinlomax 4y ago
      > It's the first "genocide" in history in which nobody was killed Forcible displacement of populations and remvoing children from their parents and culture is considered genocide. For an example of the latter, see Putin's recent indictment by the ICC.
      - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
        Nobody in the public would consider what China is doing genocide. The word "genocide" means mass murder of an entire ethnic group. You're using the word because you know that that's how people interpret it, and you want the shock value. Exactly as I said, when pressed, you try to redefine the word to mean something completely different. By the way, even the far lesser claims you're making are incorrect. The Uyghur population in Xinjiang continues to grow, life expectancy is increasing, the language not only continues to be spoken but even continues to be the primary language used to teach Uyghur children in school. There is political repression, targeted particularly at what China regards as separatism and religious extremism, but the "genocide" accusation is pure bad faith.
        DrThunder 4y ago
        Oh weird... then why are there thousands of articles from the west and several NATO countries calling it genocide? It meets the definition of genocide. Are you a Chinese state actor or just a brainwashed college student?
    - DrThunder 4y ago
- DrThunder 4y ago
  Huh? Have you just ignored the last decade of news? China is mostly certainly genocidal. They've put Uyghurs in concentration camps and sterilized them. The question, is why are you apologizing for them and pretending this didn't happen?
myrmidon 4y ago
> Textbook example of whataboutism. No. Whataboutism would if we were arguing about "China bad" and I pointed out "Saudis worse". But we're not. My point is that "protecting democratic values" is quite obviously NOT the prime motivation for US foreign policy-- this can be seen VERY clearly where US interests conflict with "protection of democratic values". The Saudis are just a very obvious recent example, but there are countless others-- like the coup against the democratically elected Iranian government in 1953, or the whole Snowden affair (spying on fully democratic allies, but also showing that even internal democratic concerns--constitutional rights + governmental agency accountability-- are secondary to national interests). The whole Snowden thing would have been an excellent opportunity to build credibility in this regard, to reassure citizens and allies alike, by simply admitting: "We did questionable, undemocratic things, but we're gonna fix it!", start by throwing James Clapper into prison for a few years, dissolve the Guantanamo bay concentration camp, and reinforce your citizens constitutional rights to not get spied on by your own government. But alas... /rant
- himinlomax 4y ago
  You said, literally. "Whatabout Saudi Arabia." That's called whataboutism. Also SA is not worse than China. Saudi Arabia may have some modern day slavery going on, but China is depriving over a billion of basic freedoms and currently commiting genocide. They support North Korea, thr most oppressive regime on earth. They promote in their propaganda the worst mass murderer in History by far, Mao Zedong. But as always, there's people like you to say "but whatabout so-and-so."
  - myrmidon 4y ago
    I repeat: I'm NOT discussing the relative merits of the Chinese/Saudi regimes- I'm using the Saudis as a very recent example of how US foreign policy is clearly NOT primarily motivated by "spreading democratic values". You have so far neither addressed any of my actual points nor have you tried to make arguments in favor of your view. What are your precedents that give you such confidence that US foreign policy is primarily aimed at spreading democratic values instead of furthering US interests first and foremost?

Textbook example of whataboutism. The fact that the US is not dunking on Saudi Arabia does not change the fact that the CCP is a murderous, genocidal, antidemocratic force that needs to be contained.

mardifoufs 4y ago

Precedent isn't whataboutism. You cannot claim that the intentions of the US are to oppose dictatorships or whatever while also supporting saudi arabia. I mean, you can, but no amount of "whataboutism" accusations will make the claim credible. It's fine to just say that the US is doing it to counter a geopolitical rival, it requires a lot less mental gymnastics.

tivert 4y ago

> The fact that the US is not dunking on Saudi Arabia does not change the fact that the CCP is a murderous, genocidal, antidemocratic force that needs to be contained. IIRC, the US did in fact "dunk" on Saudi Arabia after the Khashoggi murder, which kind of screwed them when they wanted cooperation to lower oil prices that wasn't given.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago

It's fine to criticize the Chinese government for not being democratic or for restricting freedom of speech, but it's not genocidal, and over the last several decades, it's been far less murderous and aggressive than the US government. China hasn't even fought a war in over 40 years. No amount of invocations of "whataboutism" will erase the fact that the US killed hundreds of thousands of people in an illegal war in Iraq, while China has basically kept to itself for decades.

himinlomax 4y ago
It's committing genocide on the Uyghur people. Of course we don't have a lot of evidenc, you'll say. Same thing useful people likely you said in the 1930s about the Holodomor. And there wasn't much evidence back then either for the same reason: communist dictatorship doing a hard lock down on journalism, and people like you to turn a blind eye to the horror.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  It's the first "genocide" in history in which nobody was killed. The people claiming it's a "genocide" don't even claim that anyone is being killed. If you actually press them, they try to redefine the word "genocide" to mean something completely different. Words have meaning, and a word as important as "genocide" should not be thrown around in bad faith as a polemical tool.
  - himinlomax 4y ago
    > It's the first "genocide" in history in which nobody was killed Forcible displacement of populations and remvoing children from their parents and culture is considered genocide. For an example of the latter, see Putin's recent indictment by the ICC.
    - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
      Nobody in the public would consider what China is doing genocide. The word "genocide" means mass murder of an entire ethnic group. You're using the word because you know that that's how people interpret it, and you want the shock value. Exactly as I said, when pressed, you try to redefine the word to mean something completely different. By the way, even the far lesser claims you're making are incorrect. The Uyghur population in Xinjiang continues to grow, life expectancy is increasing, the language not only continues to be spoken but even continues to be the primary language used to teach Uyghur children in school. There is political repression, targeted particularly at what China regards as separatism and religious extremism, but the "genocide" accusation is pure bad faith.
      - DrThunder 4y ago
        Oh weird... then why are there thousands of articles from the west and several NATO countries calling it genocide? It meets the definition of genocide. Are you a Chinese state actor or just a brainwashed college student?
  - DrThunder 4y ago
DrThunder 4y ago
Huh? Have you just ignored the last decade of news? China is mostly certainly genocidal. They've put Uyghurs in concentration camps and sterilized them. The question, is why are you apologizing for them and pretending this didn't happen?

myrmidon 4y ago

> Textbook example of whataboutism. No. Whataboutism would if we were arguing about "China bad" and I pointed out "Saudis worse". But we're not. My point is that "protecting democratic values" is quite obviously NOT the prime motivation for US foreign policy-- this can be seen VERY clearly where US interests conflict with "protection of democratic values". The Saudis are just a very obvious recent example, but there are countless others-- like the coup against the democratically elected Iranian government in 1953, or the whole Snowden affair (spying on fully democratic allies, but also showing that even internal democratic concerns--constitutional rights + governmental agency accountability-- are secondary to national interests). The whole Snowden thing would have been an excellent opportunity to build credibility in this regard, to reassure citizens and allies alike, by simply admitting: "We did questionable, undemocratic things, but we're gonna fix it!", start by throwing James Clapper into prison for a few years, dissolve the Guantanamo bay concentration camp, and reinforce your citizens constitutional rights to not get spied on by your own government. But alas... /rant

himinlomax 4y ago
You said, literally. "Whatabout Saudi Arabia." That's called whataboutism. Also SA is not worse than China. Saudi Arabia may have some modern day slavery going on, but China is depriving over a billion of basic freedoms and currently commiting genocide. They support North Korea, thr most oppressive regime on earth. They promote in their propaganda the worst mass murderer in History by far, Mao Zedong. But as always, there's people like you to say "but whatabout so-and-so."
- myrmidon 4y ago
  I repeat: I'm NOT discussing the relative merits of the Chinese/Saudi regimes- I'm using the Saudis as a very recent example of how US foreign policy is clearly NOT primarily motivated by "spreading democratic values". You have so far neither addressed any of my actual points nor have you tried to make arguments in favor of your view. What are your precedents that give you such confidence that US foreign policy is primarily aimed at spreading democratic values instead of furthering US interests first and foremost?